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Thread: What do Shia's believe?

  1. #71

    Default

    you know how hidden shia keep their stuff like their books of namaz etc?..(again I can prove you with an experience my mother came across regarding how a shia kept their book of namaz hidden n was not ready to show it).. but then again, it won't be a video recording, nor will it be an excerpt from their books.. so, will you accept??
    Assalam alaykum,

    This is strange reasoning when you can go to a shia mosque and watch how they pray. just like the claims we have heard that

    I would strongly stress that we should know the basis of entering the fold of Islam and exiting it before we hastly, unknowingly or just because others have differences we accuse of people of kufr.

    e.g believing in imams being infallible is not a reason to say they are disbelievers. Many matters one may be greatly sinful but not neccesarily kafir because he still believes in Allah and his Messenger.

  2. #72

    Default Do shias believe that Quran is changed?

    For those who want to do mass takfir on shias claiming that they believe that the Quran has been changed, here is something to ponder upon:
    ======
    The greatest scholar of Shia in Hadith (Shaykh al-Muhaddithin), Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919-381/991), wrote:

    "Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

    Shia reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77.
    ========

    Another prominent Shia scholar is Allama Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar who wrote in his Shia Creed book that:

    "We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which can not be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Quran said: "Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"

    Shia reference: The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, pp 50-51
    ======

    The Grand Ayatollah Imam Muhammad Shirazi writes in "The Shi'a and their Beliefs" Page 29 (English Version)

    There has been no corruption of it (Quran) and no substitution, no addition and no subtraction and Allah has protected it from those who seek to corrupt it and no-one has been able to add even a single letter or subtract a single letter. As Almighty Allah has said: "Verily We sent down the reminder (the Quran) and We are its protectors"
    The Shia believe that the Quran was collated in the form we have it today – beginning with the opening chapter (al-fatiah) and ending with the chapter entitled ‘mankind’ (al-nas) – during the time of the Messenger of Allah (SAW) by order of Allah and under the supervision of His Messenger (SAW) without corruption or substitution, and without bringing forward or putting back. What some claim about the Quran being collated after the death of the Messenger of Allah is not correct.
    ======

    Sayyid al-Murtadha, another prominent Shi'ite Scholar said:

    "... our certainty of the completeness of the Quran is like our certainty of the existence of countries or major events that are self evident. Motives and reasons for recording and guarding the Holy Quran are numerous. Because the Quran is a miracle of the Prophethood and the source of Islamic Knowledge and religious rule, their concern with the Quran made the Muslim Scholars highly efficient concerning grammar, its reading, and its verses."
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

  3. #73

    Default

    Assalam o alaikum everyone.

    @ Mehzouz, in response to post no.55 ..I've seen the video, what was discussed in it,i.e shias praying 3 times, or adding to the kalma, or praying with unfolded hands, is not what makes shiaa'ism kufr.. did I ever say it does?.. nor doing biddat makes a person kafir(unless he's mixing shirk with the biddah).. things like they consider Imams to be superior than Prophets, n infallibility of their Imams ,etc were not discussed in the video, which are the main issues.

    @ everyone , in response to your questions, I've JUST searched internet to get some info on this topic, n I found the right thing Alhumdulillah.. Please take a look at the two links posted below,

    http://www.schiiten.com/backup/Ahlel...-prophets.html

    http://www.schiiten.com/backup/Ahlel...ed-muslim.html

    Please read the two very carefully n completely..

    The second link says in conclusion(written in the end of the article) that,

    "In conclusion, we say that Shi’ism is Kufr, and there is no doubt about this; if one properly follows Shia doctrine, then such a person is a Kaafir. Based on this, we say that the Shia leaders, scholars, and learned ones–including their propagandists–are Kufaar. As for the Shia lay-persons, then we generally refrain from passing Takfeer on them as a matter of precaution due to their ignorance which oftentimes saves them from Kufr. Therefore, we should make general statements such as “Shi’ism is Kufr” and “the Shia leaders, scholars, and learned ones (including their propagandists) are Kufaar” but refrain from specifically condemning individual lay-persons who are ignorant of certain Shia doctrines. We should shun the former (i.e. the learned ones) but we should soften the latter (i.e. the ignorant ones)."

    I agree to the above, I think.. BUT I also believe that MOST of the shiaas are kafir, there might be a very few of them who don't seek help from ghair'ullah, or who consider their Imams not equal or above the Prophets, or who say that cursing the sahaaba is not permissible..(most say it is permissible whether they do it or not), n those who don't say that there has been tahreef in the Holy Quran.. (Taqaiyyah is a famous concept in shias, but if a shia says that he/she does not agree to above things,although these are the actual shia doctrines), I would not call him/her a kafir as I have to judge him/her on the 'zaahir' ..!

    And Allah swt knows the best!

    JazakAllah.

    P.S. Now, what I wrote in my words above, does HT agree with it? EXACTLY as I wrote? or is there any difference? whatever the case is, don't forget to mention please.
    It is You (Allah alone) we worship; and You (Allah alone) we ask for help. [Al-Fatiha-The Opening]

  4. #74

    Default

    And yes, the RAFIDI shias (ithna ashari) who are found in majority, are clear-cut KAFIRS,WITHOUT ANY DOUBT!
    It is You (Allah alone) we worship; and You (Allah alone) we ask for help. [Al-Fatiha-The Opening]

  5. #75

    Default

    @mono toto

    Apart from emotional rhetorics and copy pastes of opinions you havent put forward a single point that makes shias kaffir.

    I think lets start with the Framework of aqeedah and what consists of aqeedah. That is the fundamental of reaching conclusion for this topic.
    "O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion, Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower."[al-Ma'ida: 54]

  6. #76

    Default

    MT, looks like you have made two issues of what makes them kafir, infallability of imams and imams being superior to prophet.

    What is the decisive evidence that believing imams are infallible makes someone kafir?

    Who spefically believes their imams are superior to the prophet (saw) and in what way?

    Apart from that, observer and Abdulbasit have answered all your points.

  7. #77

    Default

    MT, what would Maj/Kenobe have to say about their leader who has now changed their position on shia?


  8. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-A View Post
    MT, what would Maj/Kenobe have to say about their leader who has now changed their position on shia?

    what leader? who are they?
    It is You (Allah alone) we worship; and You (Allah alone) we ask for help. [Al-Fatiha-The Opening]

  9. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ideological View Post
    @mono toto

    Apart from emotional rhetorics and copy pastes of opinions you havent put forward a single point that makes shias kaffir.

    I think lets start with the Framework of aqeedah and what consists of aqeedah. That is the fundamental of reaching conclusion for this topic.
    Not sure if this point is deliberately bring ignored.
    Quran 15:3: "Let them eat, enjoy, and remain blinded by wishful thinking; they will find out!"

  10. #80

    Default Imam Ma'asoom

    Now, what I wrote in my words above, does HT agree with it? EXACTLY as I wrote? or is there any difference? whatever the case is, don't forget to mention please.
    Regarding infallibility (Ismaa), HT's opinion is that all Prophets are ma'asoom. HT does not consider anyone else as Ma'asoom.

    Having said that, the beilef of shias that Imams are also ma'asoom does not entail kufr bacause their opinion is based on evidence from Quran (although I do not agree with their interpretation of the ayat).

    Their first evidence is the ayah of Quran:
    "O you who believe! Obey Allah and his Apostle and those in authority among you". (Surah Nisa: 59)
    and Shia say that: The type of obedience to "Ulil Amr" that Allah (swt) has ordered is unconditional obedience, it must relate to that individual who is ma'soom, because unconditional obedience cannot be to a person who errs.

    The second evidence:
    Allah only intends to keep (all sorts of) filth away from you, O members of the family (of the prophet), and to make you pure through a perfect purification. (Al-Ahzab:33)
    They say the ayah refers to infallibilty of Ahlul Bayt and Allah has removed all mistakes from Ahlul Bayt and made them ma'asoom.

    So what is your evidence that one who believes in infallibility of Ahlul Bayt and Imams is a kafir?

    Wassalam
    And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back to Allah. (3:109)

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