Somali forces ban women's veils

[zangi]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DB54F316-6650-4006-8872-6F7C9DB45487.htm

[Fallujah_Sniper]

Salaam,

This shows the cowerdice and disgusting behaviour of the Somali forces who are fighting against the Islamic courts.

But then again, I wouldnt be suprised if the troops carrying out these acts are not even muslims.

Inshallah Allah will destroy the forces of the Kufaar and those aiding them.

ALLAH-HU-AKBAR

[Psychotic]

AMEEN
(and may it be a humiliating destruction)

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Even though I consider the niqab (veil) to have no basis in the sharia and a means by which women are dehumanised. I finding very disturbing that Muslim men would forcibly remove the veil in the manner that has been described...

[neelu]

Even though I consider the niqab (veil) to have no basis in the sharia and a means by which women are dehumanised...

Be careful what you say akhi, remember the wives of the Prophet (saw) covered their faces as well. Besides, if that's the way you look at it, why would you find it disturbing that the veils are removed? Wouldn't you think they're "rehumanising" the sisters? :roll:

[Gabriel]

Peregrine_Falcon wrote:
Even though I consider the niqab (veil) to have no basis in the sharia and a means by which women are dehumanised...

You don't consider that Islam dehumanises the unbeliever, though? You're not disturbed by the concepts of dhimmitude and jizya?

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Be careful what you say akhi, remember the wives of the Prophet (saw) covered their faces as well. Besides, if that's the way you look at it, why would you find it disturbing that the veils are removed? Wouldn't you think they're "rehumanising" the sisters? :roll:

JazakhAllah for that bit of advice.

[Fallujah_Sniper]

Gabriel,

You don't consider that Islam dehumanises the unbeliever, though? You're not disturbed by the concepts of dhimmitude and jizya?

Man does not have the ability to decide what is right and wrong as he is limited and requires previous information.

Islam tells us that the kufaar living in the islamic state is called a Dhimmi and pay jizya, then so be it.

There is nothing wrong at all in Dhimmi's (other than being one), and paying that jizya.

The same way stoning the adulterer, chopping the hand of the thief etc are from Islam and I am totally at peace with this.

[Gabriel]

I'm sure you are.
But I wouldn't ask you because you're totally at peace with the niqab as well. Peregrine_Falcon isn't.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Peregrine_falcon is at peace with the niqab. It was a command ordered upon the wives of the prophet to elevate their status above other women. Muslim women are not obliged to wear the niqab according to the opinion I adopt, nonetheless others are convinced that the obligation extends to other believing women. And I accept these differing opinions.

[Gabriel]

Fair enough.
So you're at peace with a Muslim opinion and practice that you see as dehumanising Muslim women? But disturbed by a Muslim opinion and practice that should then, as neelu says, rehumanise them.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

Well I was corrected on the "dehumanising" quote.

[Gabriel]

That's interesting.
Yesterday your considered opinion was that the niqab was dehumanising.
Today your opinion is that it is not.
Yesterday (it seems) you weren't aware that Muhammad's wives wore it (or some equivalent of it).
Today you are aware of that fact.
Perhaps you ought not to try to think for yourself at all, just refer to Qur'an and Hadith. Then you will be sure to remain a good Muslim.

[Fallujah_Sniper]

Gabriel...

OH PERFECT ONE!!

That's interesting.
Yesterday your considered opinion was that the niqab was dehumanising.
Today your opinion is that it is not.
Yesterday (it seems) you weren't aware that Muhammad's wives wore it (or some equivalent of it).
Today you are aware of that fact.
Perhaps you ought not to try to think for yourself at all, just refer to Qur'an and Hadith. Then you will be sure to remain a good Muslim.

The brother made a mistake and now has corrected it, so whats your problem. You have no decent arguements/comments to make, so you just taking a dig at him.

Have you never made a mistake before??

[abdul-ali]

Yesterday your considered opinion was that the niqab was dehumanising.
Today your opinion is that it is not.
Yesterday (it seems) you weren't aware that Muhammad's wives wore it (or some equivalent of it).
Today you are aware of that fact.
Perhaps you ought not to try to think for yourself at all, just refer to Qur'an and Hadith. Then you will be sure to remain a good Muslim.
When it comes to Islam, we hear and obey, and submit to the rules and respect them because they are taken from the revelation sent down from our Creator.

Where do you get your opinions of right and wrong, the current public opinion?

[Gabriel]

Gabriel...

OH PERFECT ONE!!

That's interesting.
Yesterday your considered opinion was that the niqab was dehumanising.
Today your opinion is that it is not.
Yesterday (it seems) you weren't aware that Muhammad's wives wore it (or some equivalent of it).
Today you are aware of that fact.
Perhaps you ought not to try to think for yourself at all, just refer to Qur'an and Hadith. Then you will be sure to remain a good Muslim.

The brother made a mistake and now has corrected it, so whats your problem. You have no decent arguements/comments to make, so you just taking a dig at him.

Have you never made a mistake before??

Yes I have. Many.
I've never been mistaken as to what my own opinion on a particular issue is, though.

[Gabriel]

Yesterday your considered opinion was that the niqab was dehumanising.
Today your opinion is that it is not.
Yesterday (it seems) you weren't aware that Muhammad's wives wore it (or some equivalent of it).
Today you are aware of that fact.
Perhaps you ought not to try to think for yourself at all, just refer to Qur'an and Hadith. Then you will be sure to remain a good Muslim.
When it comes to Islam, we hear and obey, and submit to the rules and respect them because they are taken from the revelation sent down from our Creator.

Where do you get your opinions of right and wrong, the current public opinion?

Of course you do. That's what being a Muslim is all about.
Unfortunately for the rest of us, the rules you believe come from God pretty much exclude us from being treated equally by you on the basis of our humanity. If we don't also submit to those rules we are to be forced to pay jizhya and become Dhimmi. For many Muslims, an Islamic caliphate should only conclude a treaty with a non-Islamic state that it could not conquer.

I try to formulate my opinions of right and wrong using the Gospels as a basis for prayerful discernment.

[stranger]

Peregrine_Falcon wrote:
Even though I consider the niqab (veil) to have no basis in the sharia and a means by which women are dehumanised...

You don't consider that Islam dehumanises the unbeliever, though? You're not disturbed by the concepts of dhimmitude and jizya?
Why should Muslims be disturbed by 'dhimmitude' when the Messenger said in the translation of a famous hadith.
"Whoever harms a dhimmi its as though he has harmed me.'
Jizya is a small taxation paid by non-Muslim citizens of the khilafah in return they will be treated as equal citizens to the Muslim citizens who pay a taxation called zakat.
When we obey the law of the Khilafah as Muslims we obey it as an act of worship.
When the dhimmi obeys the law he obeys it because its the law. It is the mirror image of what most Muslims do in the world today they pay thier taxes to the non Muslims obey the law of the land and refrain from looking at the bit bit on thier pay slip that says 'gross pay' as do the non-Muslims.
The difference between the Khilafah and today is there will be no gross or net pay.You will pay annually according to the wealth you posses.
I cannot for the life of me understand how that makes the dhimmi a second class citizen.
You would be one of us i.e acitizen of the Islamic state, where your rights, honour, property, mind and family are under the protection of Allah's laws.

[Gabriel]

What makes the dhimmi a second class citizen is that dhimmitude is imposed upon him. Jizya is a tax on non-Muslims. A tax upon people for not being Muslim. What percentage of wealth is it?
However it may seem in theory, it is the sign of a conquered people.

Fight those of the people who were given the Book who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who do not make forbidden what Allah and His Messenger have made forbidden and do not take as their religion the religion of Truth, until they pay the poll tax with their own hands in a state of complete abasement. (Qur'an 9:29)

[stranger]

Just as income tax is imposed upon me living in Engalnd. But because I think politically I don't feel like a second class citizen from the taxation point of view. I and non Muslims alike are taxed by the state according to our wealth.
The percentage is irrelevant but it is most defenitley less than what you and I pay at the moment.
It is a sign not of a conqured people rather it is a sign of non Muslims who have signed a contract with the Islamic state in return for protection of their sacred rights.
The translated verse you quoted from the Quran was abrogated by the famous verse
"La ikra hafi deen" meaning "dont use force against people in order to change their religion".

[Gabriel]

You don't pay a different tax to Christians in order to have your rights, so you're not second class.
Would jizya be the same percentage as zakat? If so why have a different tax?

Now I am confused.
The Qur'an abrogates the Qur'an?
How should I tell which verses are abrogated by which?
Do all Muslims agree about which abrogates which? Do they all agree that any of it is abrogated?

[stranger]

I made a point of saying that I don't feel like a 'second class citizen' from a taxation pont of view.
I don't feel this way because I am taxed just like you according to the law of the land.
Just as you will be taxed in the coming Khilafah by the law of the land without being a second class citizen. You would be a dhimmi who pays less tax than in a non Islamic state. After all one of the functions of governmet i s to tax its population. The fact that Muslims have jizyah and zakat and the west has got income tax, national insurance, value added tax, stealth tax, poll tax etc dosen't make you a second class citizen.

Now I am confused?
No Gabriel.
Yes stranger I was always confused.
Yes there are verses in the Quran that abrogate others.
In order to know which verse abrogates the other you are reqiured to study the sciences of Islam.
May Allah guide you.

[neelu]

Dhimmis have a different tax because both Dhimmis and Muslim citizens of an Islamic state would be entitled to state protection if the state came under attack from outside forces. Muslims are obliged to train for the state army in order to provide that protection whereas Dhimmis are not under obligation to join but can do so if they choose- yet I don't see any Kufaar complaining that they're treated 'unequally' in this regard *rolls eyes*.

[Gabriel]

stranger.
If that verse has been abrogated, both you and I will be long dead before Britain becomes part of a Khilafah.
I'm confused because I've been given to believe that the Qur'an is the final clear message/warning to mankind; given to Muhammad, who then saw to it that it was not in any way corrupted.
If this is the case, how can one or more parts of this one final message be abrogated by another part?
you may choose to call this, in English, 'abrogation'; the rest of the world may prefer the term 'contradiction'. I was already aware of some seeming contradictions in the Qur'an, but assumed this may be down to context or to bad translation, or to both. Apparently not.

neelu.
Where does this happen now?
If a non-Muslim serves in the army will he be excused jizya, or will it be reduced to the level of zakat, or what?

[Gabriel]

stranger.

I found this:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoemaker/handouts/abrogation.html

Note the last paragraph.
Your comments on the whole?

[neelu]

neelu.
Where does this happen now?
If a non-Muslim serves in the army will he be excused jizya, or will it be reduced to the level of zakat, or what?

I'm referring to how things work in an Islamic state under an Islamic ruling system. I'm not referring to anything that may or may not happen now as there is no Islamic state in the world at the moment and there hasn't been one for several decades. Therefore none of the countries of the world today could be cited as examples of how an Islamic system works. I do not know the answer to your last question.

[Gabriel]

neelu.
Sorry. I got the mistaken impression from your post that there was a Muslim country or countries somewhere which operated a system of taxation and military national service similar to such as would be in force in the Khilafah.