Hope is fading to reform Islam

[Peregrine_Falcon]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011322.php

Interesting article and comments.

[Gabriel]

Yes.
As you see, confirms my reply to you on another thread.

[abujamal]

Good.

[Gabriel]

Good.
In what sense is such confirmation good?

[*Saifallah*]

It’s good,

Because as Muslims we are encouraged to see that Muslims are not being fooled or duped to the extent were we will allow Islam to be reformed.

if you look at the all the other religions in the world, such as Christianity and Judaism, they have all gone through a reformation process. And this was the downfall of these religions.

Thankfully this has not happened to Islam, though the kaafir west and her agents are trying ever so hard to such an act.

infact the kaafir have had a free reign for the 80 years to do this, yet they still fail. Now Muslims are waking up, it’s a question of WHEN Islam is restored back to its rightful place and not IF...

The weak religions in history have always reformed in order to progress or move along with society in order to be accepted...this was a foolish mistake..!!!

In Islam this is not the case and never will be the case.....

[Gabriel]

Yes. The reformers are not staying true to the literal message of the Qur'an.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world a literal reading of the Qur'an seems to sanction our subjugation in the name of God.

[neelu]

Given a choice between living under God's laws and living under Satan's, I know which I'd choose... and it's already clear what the Kufaar would choose. The funny thing is that the Kufaar take pride in their choice... to choose Islam would be what they call 'subjugation' but to choose Kufr would be what they call 'freedom'. I'd call it a one way trip to hell, but alhamdullilah Allah (swt) gave everyone free will and everyone will reap what they sow in the end.

[Gabriel]

neelu.
You see, that's part of the problem. You tar all non-Muslims with the same brush. As far as you're concerned anyone who isn't a Muslim has chosen to live under Satan's laws, and is by definition evil. However, if Judaism and Christianity were God's revelation before Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, how can they now be Satan's law? You have chosen to believe that God revealed His will for us to Muhammad. I am unable, in good conscience, to express the same belief. Not least because I don't see how a compassionate God would will that some of His children should impose a choice between assent to THIS revelation or subjugation or death. These are the choices non-Muslims have been and are offered by those who obey the Qur'an and carry the message abroad in 'jihad by the sword', as Muhammad himself did.
God's message through Jesus was one of peace. Note I don't claim that Christians have always carried that message peacefully, nevertheless the message is a peaceful one - "love one another". This does not mean love only other Christians, it means love all of God's children. The only jihad in Christianity is the jihad of the spirit against the desire to sin. In Christianity one is enjoined to hate the sin not the sinner. There are no calls in the New Testament for military crusade.
'Freedom' is just that. All humans want to be left to make their own choices, right or wrong. You have freely made your choice, the rest of humanity just want to be able to do the same without having to pay jizya, or to accept (the second class status of) Dhimmitude or to be forced to fight for the right to live their choice. This last is the freedom you look for in the Caliphate. May you obtain it soon and find it as precious as we do.

[Psychotic]

gabriel this is where you fall in your arguments. You are using your mind which is limited and incapable of comprehending the creator to try and understand why he has ordered certain things, which is totaly irrational. The creator in his capacity as the unlimited cannot be understood by the us except by that which he has comunicated to us or we can establish through ration such as the fact he is unlimited. So what you or anyone else thinks is not a suitable foundation for discussion and hence does not have any room in this argument.

what ever may or may not have been revealed to Isa would have no bearing today unless you could prove that he was infact a prophet or in your case you proving that he is the son of god. If you cannot prove any of these then again you do not have room to argue against muslims here using christianity.

Muslims can prove there is a creator, muslims can prove he has communicated to via the angel gabrial to muhammed (saw) with the quran, which makes the quran the speech of the creator and muhammed (saw) the messenger. If this hadnt been established we wouldnt accept anything from islam. Now if you can prove you have a similar foundation then we might have some scope for a discussion here.

[Gabriel]

psychotic.
I've been down this road on other threads cf. LATEST NEWS & CURRENT AFFAIRS >> Join The British Army And Become A Martyr, and DAWAH TO NON MUSLIMS >> Invitation To Islam.
Your so called proofs are circular. They mostly amount to "the Qur'an must be the speech of God because the Qur'an says so".
Your faith is just that - faith. It is a belief that does not rest upon any logical proof or material evidence. Just as mine is. Neither of us will learn for sure which of our truth claims about the relationship between God and man are justified until we are dead. If there is no God at all (and I believe there is but it is always possible, as with any realist view, that I am mistaken), there will be no 'us' to learn that fact.


You are using your mind which is limited and incapable of comprehending the creator to try and understand why he has ordered certain things, which is totaly irrational. The creator in his capacity as the unlimited cannot be understood by the us except by that which he has comunicated to us or we can establish through ration such as the fact he is unlimited.

I do not use my mind to try to establish why God has ordered things as He has. I use it to try to determine what is revelation and what is not.

Perhaps you can tell me exactly where it is recorded that it was revealed to Muhammad that Christianity is now Satan's law?

[*Saifallah*]

Once again your going off on a tangent AGAIN....we use our rational mind to come to the conclusion that man did not write the quran.....!!!...come on even you can understand that statement....

And you keep going on about this thing about faith, its what the so called religions of the world have to use, because they can never ever make the claim that any of the religions they propogate are based on any rational evidence.....

Surah 10 v 38 Or do they say, "He forged it"? say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"


So the challenge is there for you to break and anyone....come on produce one surah like it in Arabic please.....go on you have put a man on the moon...surely this is a far simpler challenge for you is it not???

QUOTE:
I do not use my mind to try to establish why God has ordered things as He has. I use it to try to determine what is revelation and what is not.


SO IS THE QURAN REVELATION OR NOT? WHAT HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED IN ORDER TO PROVE THAT IT IS OR DISPROVE THAT IT IS NOT?????

infact you accept that your belief is not even based on reason....you further go onto say that you accept there may be a possibility that there may even not be a god...there is the blatant contradiction in your "faith"...

I think really to be honest you don’t want to admit it you just come on here because you think that your arguments actually may have influence...for someone who has admitted that they accept the possibility that there many not be a god...hmmm, and NOT accepted the fact that Christianity has been through reformation....reformation is only carried out if something is not working or is incorrect...hence Judaism, Christianity have been through the reformation process.....

In islam this will not take place and muslims have not allowed it to happen and neither will they allow it to happen!.

[Gabriel]

What rational evidence?
If your so called evidence is so compelling why is the whole world not Muslim?
You accept the Qur'an is what it says it is because it says it is.
Even if it were possible (which it isn't) to prove that it is the work of some non-human entity, that still would not necessarily mean that it was God's speech. As I've said before I am neither a linguist nor a literary critic, but the most that can be argued from the beauty of the Qur'an as a literary work is that it's human author is the most accomplished, talented poet/writer possessing an intimate knowledge and understanding of the beauty and the poetic/literary capacity of the Arabic language, that has ever lived. So far. Using one's reason to examine one's faith doesn't just mean accepting one's faith is justified because it says so in a book.

I can't find the passage where I deny Christianity has gone through reform. Although I'm not exactly sure what reformation process you are talking about. You would help by being more explicit.

Of course I accept the, I believe very very remote, possibility that there is no God. I've never met Him. He and my waking self have not had a dialogue of any sort. But perhaps you have...? I also believe that some men have walked on the moon, but I didn't put any of them there so I accept the not so remote possibility that that belief may be false.

Is the Qur'an revelation? I don't know. I'm not convinced it is, but that may be at least in part due to my cultural conditioning, it is certainly at least in part due to the fact that I don't believe God wishes violence upon any of His children. According to Jesus He doesn't, and I grew up with that message. My investigations consist in meditation and prayer.

Noone on this forum hopes that what they say will have no influence on the thinking of others. I don't try to convert any of you, I simply and honestly state why I find it hard to believe in Muhammad's message.

[Psychotic]

Well coming from a person who believs in the message of somoene who he cant even prove was a prophet or the son of god, probably doesnt take much for you to believe in anything anyway. Its going to be hard to take the islam to such a shallow level of understanding that you need.

You say you dont use your mind to conclude about the creator but you yourself say you dont believe that god would wish violence on his children? Where is rational thought involved there its purely your own mind believeing what you want to believe, without even considering what does originate from the creator and what doesnt.

You say you find it hard to believe the quran is the word of the creator with all the Rational evidence presented, despite your futile attempt to disprove it, you still choose to follow a book which is undeniably man writen so where does one begin discussing with you?

[Gabriel]

You could start by showing me evidence that isn't contained in or derived from the Qur'an.

I make no attempt to disprove the Qur'an is revelation. I say again, I simply state why I am not convinced.
Yes, the Bible was written by men.
However, the Qur'an was not written by God. There is no original copy that is in God's very own handwriting. There were (I believe) no witnesses to the dialogue between Gabriel and Muhammad. The revealed verses were written down after Muhammad was given them.

Did Muhammad say to anyone, "Oh dear, where does one begin discussing with you?"?

You could start by showing me evidence that isn't contained in or derived from the Qur'an.

I make no attempt to disprove the Qur'an is revelation. I say again, I simply state why I am not convinced.
Yes, the Bible was written by men.
However, the Qur'an was not written by God. There is no original copy that is in God's very own handwriting. There were (I believe) no witnesses to the dialogue between Gabriel and Muhammad. The revealed verses were written down after Muhammad was given them.

Did Muhammad say to anyone, "Oh dear, where does one begin discussing with you?"?

Many people muslims and non muslims were present when the Prophet saw got revelations, and they were ordered to right it down in front of him.

the challenge to man to see if it is from man or creator is for man to try and bring verses matching the linguitc miracle, if they cant then it is from Allah

Listen to yourself guy, you say openly the bible is from man, why do you follow it then, if i write the gospel according to mujahideen according to your criteria of "believing" you would be following my gospel. Thats all next mans matthew mark luke and john did, and you follow them.

[Gabriel]

Many people muslims and non muslims were present when the Prophet saw got revelations, and they were ordered to right it down in front of him.

So noone actually saw Gabriel, then?
Muhammad said, "Gabriel just told me this, write it down.."


Listen to yourself guy, you say openly the bible is from man, why do you follow it then, if i write the gospel according to mujahideen according to your criteria of "believing" you would be following my gospel.

So, if I tell you, "The Archangel Michael just spoke to me and said that the message to Muhammad was now abrogated. God has spoken again to Man and you are not to question God. Here's the actual final revelation. Write it down, starting with what I just said." according to your criterion of "believing" (because that's what you do, you believe in Muhammad's message), you would follow my recitation.

The Bible was written by men and the Qur'an was written by men. the difference is Muhammad claims that what was written by his men is the actual speech of God, whereas the Bible is not claimed to be His actual words, nevertheless it is claimed to be God's messages through the various prophets (which, I'm sure you know, Islam accepts). These are all just claims as they cannot be proved. Noone heard God, or Gabriel for that matter, speak to the prophets. All of these messages have come through a human vehicle to mankind. As such, some or all of them may be fact, some or all of them may be fiction. It's up to us to try to discern.
You might be right. I might be right. Neither of us might be right. Unfortunately, I don't think both of us can be right.

[neelu]

neelu.
You see, that's part of the problem. You tar all non-Muslims with the same brush. As far as you're concerned anyone who isn't a Muslim has chosen to live under Satan's laws, and is by definition evil. However, if Judaism and Christianity were God's revelation before Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, how can they now be Satan's law?

Funnily enough, Jesus (as) faced the same problem with the Jews. Allah (swt) describes him in a verse saying that Jesus (as) was sent to confirm the message of God (swt) which was sent aforetime and yet Jews were rejecting him. These Quranic verse translations describe it:

2:87 For, indeed, We vouchsafed unto Moses the divine writ and caused apostle after apostle to follow him; and We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. [Yet] is it not so that every time an apostle came unto you with something that was not to your liking, you gloried in your arrogance, and to some of them you gave the lie, while others you would slay?

2:89 And whenever there came unto them a [new] revelation from God, confirming the truth already in their possession-and [bear in mind that] aforetime they used to pray for victory over those who were bent on denying the truth -: whenever there came unto them something which they recognized [as the truth], they would deny it. And God's rejection is the due of all who deny the truth.

You have chosen to believe that God revealed His will for us to Muhammad. I am unable, in good conscience, to express the same belief. Not least because I don't see how a compassionate God would will that some of His children should impose a choice between assent to THIS revelation or subjugation or death.

Interesting that you should say this. I remember watching a tv program showing animated dramatisations of bible stories and the thing that shocked me was how it rung true with the quranic verse I've pasted at the top of this post. The Prophets (as) went to their people to order them to worship Allah (swt) or face terrible consequences. What choice did Lot (as) give his people? Did he (as) tell them they had the 'freedom' to practise homosexuality? Did he (as) tell people to fight against those who threatened the 'freedoms'?

'Freedom' is just that. All humans want to be left to make their own choices, right or wrong. You have freely made your choice, the rest of humanity just want to be able to do the same without having to pay jizya, or to accept (the second class status of) Dhimmitude or to be forced to fight for the right to live their choice.

As I said in my previous post, the choice is merely between what God commanded (Islam) and that which contradicts it (Kufr). You've already made it clear that you've chosen Kufr even though the extent to which it goes against God's commands is quite clear.

Many people muslims and non muslims were present when the Prophet saw got revelations, and they were ordered to right it down in front of him.

So noone actually saw Gabriel, then?
Muhammad said, "Gabriel just told me this, write it down.."


Listen to yourself guy, you say openly the bible is from man, why do you follow it then, if i write the gospel according to mujahideen according to your criteria of "believing" you would be following my gospel.

So, if I tell you, "The Archangel Michael just spoke to me and said that the message to Muhammad was now abrogated. God has spoken again to Man and you are not to question God. Here's the actual final revelation. Write it down, starting with what I just said." according to your criterion of "believing" (because that's what you do, you believe in Muhammad's message), you would follow my recitation.

The Bible was written by men and the Qur'an was written by men. the difference is Muhammad claims that what was written by his men is the actual speech of God, whereas the Bible is not claimed to be His actual words, nevertheless it is claimed to be God's messages through the various prophets (which, I'm sure you know, Islam accepts). These are all just claims as they cannot be proved. Noone heard God, or Gabriel for that matter, speak to the prophets. All of these messages have come through a human vehicle to mankind. As such, some or all of them may be fact, some or all of them may be fiction. It's up to us to try to discern.
You might be right. I might be right. Neither of us might be right. Unfortunately, I don't think both of us can be right.

Angels are unseen.

The way we believe in them decisively is the miracle of the Quran. Because we cannot sense angels we believe in them through a source which has been proven to be the truth with NO doubt, the Quran. Like i said before the challnge of the quran to man is that man has to match it linguistic miracle. What 1 man can do another man can equal or do better, since no one can even claim that they have produced anything like the quran we know it is not from man.

Hence if the Quran tells about the revelation by gabriel then the angels exist.

So even though the actual words were written down by man, the verses did not originate from them, because if they did, another man would be able to match it, this is what we call for,in order for someone to disprove our religion.

So it is not just a simple case of someone told us he got revelation from an angel and we believe it, but the revalation is a miracle which is incapable of coming from man and hence what ever is in Quran is from the creator

You claim that the bible is not Gods words but is his message. PROVE IT.

Otherwise I could claim i have written the gospel according to mujahideen and it is not the words of God but his message and according to your non varification of your sources, you would have to accept my Gospel.

Or are you going to say what most christians say at this point - thats your belief and this is mine, lets leave it at that.

[Psychotic]

irrelevant if anyone was there when muhammed (saw) recieved revelation, we were not there but we can prove that the quran is not the speech of man and therefore is from the creator who we can also proves exists. gabriel is just looking for an exit strategy, you are always going to get people who are scared of the truth, dont be suprised with him people.

well gabriel

still waitng for your proof that the new testament is the message of God although written by man

heres your chance to prove christianity

[Fallujah_Sniper]

Gabriel...

well gabriel

still waitng for your proof that the new testament is the message of God although written by man

heres your chance to prove christianity

It would interesting to read your response...

thats if you can give one! :P

tic, toc, tic, toc, tic, toc, tic, toc.

[Psychotic]

there is only so much some one can defend false hood for, gabriel has probably realised this

[*Saifallah*]

Yes, funny how people like gabriel mention things like logic and rational proof....yet do not even bring a seed of evidence regarding their so called religion being true....tick toc tic tock indeed.

[Gabriel]

First off. I don't have access to a computer every day, so I can't post every day. That's why you wait.

Of course I can't 'prove' Christianity to you, any more than you can 'prove' Islam to me. Once again you avoid the issue. If you think you can prove that the Qur'an is the actual speech of God, then do so without using the Qur'an. Otherwise you're just begging the question. All religions are belief. Faith.

Noone has yet matched the Qur'an as literature, you say. Well, that may be true so far. Have many people tried? If someone did try, would your judgement upon the relative merits of each work be impartial?

Again I say to you, even if the Qur'an is the work of some non human entity, how do you know it originates from God? How do you know that it isn't the work of some djinn, or of Satan himself? Note I don't claim that it originates from either of these sources, I just ask how you know it doesn't? It might seem to a Christian that the violence in the message is at odds with the love, compassion and mercy of God, from whom the message is supposed to come.

Again I say to you, there are many good people on this planet who try to live their lives as God would wish. If the message of the Qur'an, and the 'evidence' of the Qur'an's origin is so compelling as to constitute proof, why are these people not immediately (or even after some time for reflection) convinced?


Or are you going to say what most christians say at this point - thats your belief and this is mine, lets leave it at that.

Yes, I am.
You are convinced of your belief and I am convinced of mine. We'll both stand before God when our alloted time is up. So what else is there to say before that?

God Bless

[Fallujah_Sniper]

Gabriel,

Of course I can't 'prove' Christianity to you, any more than you can 'prove' Islam to me. Once again you avoid the issue. If you think you can prove that the Qur'an is the actual speech of God, then do so without using the Qur'an. Otherwise you're just begging the question. All religions are belief. Faith.

Bogus point Gabriel. Islam can be proven rationally to be the truth, so please try to refute the facts and not just hot rhetoric.

Noone has yet matched the Qur'an as literature, you say. Well, that may be true so far. Have many people tried? If someone did try, would your judgement upon the relative merits of each work be impartial?

many people have tried.... The Arabs at the time of revelation and peple have been trying since then, i.e the Orientilists.

Again I say to you, even if the Qur'an is the work of some non human entity, how do you know it originates from God? How do you know that it isn't the work of some djinn, or of Satan himself?

Is that the best you could come out with?? The Author of the Quran tells us that he is Allah, and that is fact. Why the hypothetical arguements?

Again I say to you, there are many good people on this planet who try to live their lives as God would wish. If the message of the Qur'an, and the 'evidence' of the Qur'an's origin is so compelling as to constitute proof, why are these people not immediately (or even after some time for reflection) convinced?

The creator has created man with the ability to make choices. If there is a kufaar who does not embrace Islam after SINCERELY studying it, is ignorant and covers the truth.

Finally, ok.... if you cant prove the authenticity of your Christian texts (As I already know you cannot), please try to refute the challenge of the Quran as being the WORD OF GOD!!

Thanx

[Gabriel]

Islam can be proven rationally to be the truth, so please try to refute the facts and not just hot rhetoric.

The 'truth' of the above quote is proved by the following quote, is that it?


The Author of the Quran tells us that he is Allah, and that is fact.


Why the hypothetical arguements?
What hypothetical argument? Do you think Satan is not capable of producing beautiful verse? Is he not an angel? Does he not beguile men's hearts, even good men's, every day?

Finally, ok.... if you cant prove the authenticity of your Christian texts (As I already know you cannot), please try to refute the challenge of the Quran as being the WORD OF GOD!!

Again the argument goes around in circles. Noone can prove or disprove any religion. If there is only one accurate view of the human/divine relationship and that could be proved, then there would be only one religion on Earth and no agnostics or atheists.

So again I say to you, but this time in the words of God, according to Muhammad:

Say: 'Disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what I worship. Nor will I worship what you worship nor will you worship what I worship. You have your religion and I have my religion.' (109:1-6)


God Bless

[neelu]

Again I say to you, even if the Qur'an is the work of some non human entity, how do you know it originates from God? How do you know that it isn't the work of some djinn, or of Satan himself?

Is that the best you could come out with?? The Author of the Quran tells us that he is Allah, and that is fact.

Akhi you're gonna have to do better than that to prove your point.

Just one thing Gabriel, Satan was not an angel, he was from among the Jinns, which is why he has free will to disobey Allah (swt). Satan can trick people with words, but he is after all part of creation and as fallible and imperfect as any man- he is not capable of perfection as Allah (swt) is neither in literature nor anything else.

[Gabriel]

neelu.
Thanks for that. According to the Christian tradition he was the highest angel, before he turned from God. Still, you get my point.

[Peregrine_Falcon]

According to Christian tradition the earth was created before the sun and Abraham sacrificed his only son Isaac, despite having another son thirteen years senior to Isaac... do you get my point!

[Gabriel]

No.
This is first and foremost Jewish tradition. The Satan/Lucifer tradition isn't.
Ishmael was his son by Hagar, his concubine. None of the twelve tribes are descended from him.

[Psychotic]

okay so gabriel accepts that he cant prove jesus was a prophet and he cant prove the bible is from god. Took his time but we could have told him that a while ago.

the quran itself contains a challenge to all you disbelievers that if you claim this is not the word of godf then bring back a chapter like it. Its that simple. Whatever a human being can produce can be matched by other humans and we all have the same means as each other and could produce something better, if not the same if not similar and hence at least come close to it.

Now here you have arabic language which is shared by non muslims as well as muslims. Rather than the pathetic attempts the west tried to go thorugh to attack islam, and the desperation of this war against islam, all you have to do is produce a chapter like it. The fact that for centuries people have been unable to, especially when they were at the peak of the language, as well as know when people can collaborate to produce it theystill havent been able too.

As for accepting if this challnege is met. There are millions of arab speaking non muslims, who are too embarassed to validate the silly attempts people have made. So if the challenge had been met then these people would have come out of hiding. The fact they havent, the fact that no one has been able to produce the like of it, proves it is not from man.

[Gabriel]

okay so gabriel accepts that he cant prove jesus was a prophet and he cant prove the bible is from god. Took his time but we could have told him that a while ago.

Am I mistaken here, or has Islam changed its position on Jesus' prophethood?

I've always accepted that neither of these things can be proven, my position is that no religion can be shown to be the fully, or even the most, accurate account of the human/divine relationship.



the fact that no one has been able to produce the like of it, proves it is not from man.

Even if I were to accept that, which I don't because the most that can be said is that its not being matched may be some evidence that it may be non-human in origin. It still does not automatically follow that it originates from God. As I have already said, there are other non-human entities who would delight in fooling a huge proportion of the human population into believing that god demands violence of his followers.

[Psychotic]

okay so gabriel accepts that he cant prove jesus was a prophet and he cant prove the bible is from god. Took his time but we could have told him that a while ago.

Am I mistaken here, or has Islam changed its position on Jesus' prophethood?

I've always accepted that neither of these things can be proven, my position is that no religion can be shown to be the fully, or even the most, accurate account of the human/divine relationship.



the fact that no one has been able to produce the like of it, proves it is not from man.

Even if I were to accept that, which I don't because the most that can be said is that its not being matched may be some evidence that it may be non-human in origin. It still does not automatically follow that it originates from God. As I have already said, there are other non-human entities who would delight in fooling a huge proportion of the human population into believing that god demands violence of his followers.

so when you say non human entities who could have produced it, are we talking about the tooth fairy?

[Gabriel]

You don't believe in angels, demons or Satan.
You believe Jesus wasn't a prophet.
Are you a Muslim or an incompetent agent?

[Psychotic]

ha ha calm down its obvious you are losing the plot here. First of all when someone looks to the answers of creation and the answers to how we live our life we come to the conclusion that there is creation and then that there is a creator. After concluding this it is irrational to believe in anything else from the unseen unless we can either prove its existence throughrational evidence or decisive transformative evidence which has already been established conclusively through the use of ration.

So when we prove the quran has not been produced by man that only leaves one possibility that it is form the creator. The existence of everything else is proven through the quran.

right as for believeing jesus was a prophet, i can prove it, but you cant and you cant prove he was the son of god, which was what i was getting at.

So here i am proving my believe, but you still havent been able to disproive islam or even begin to prove your religion (which you admit you cant) so when calling somoene an incompetent agent, you're the one whos not doing his job well. Any how i dont want to get into an exchange of insults with you, the fact that everyone on this site is letting you know that you follow a shallow religion must hurt you enough.

Cant u please explain with A FACT what other non human entities can produce the Quran.

And dont use the bible as a source of evidence because aint possible by anyone to prove that tghis is an authentic source of fact.

If man hasn't got the capability to produce it that nothing else on the planet can either, as man is the most advanced entity.

As it is fully proven rationally that there is a creator then the only thing left that can produce it is the creator.

When people start talking of other non human entities that they cant PROVE exist it just proves what ridiculous assumptions people base their lives upon, and from there on build further assumptions upon false assumptions.

and then come out with "its true to me, or its just my faith, everyone to his own beliefs".

Why cany these non muslims just say "we admit it, cant prove it but gonna follow blindy", i.e why cant they describe reality.Answer, cos if you describe reality correctly, they sound stupid, and they would have to think about changing this life they have built upon all thier false premesis.

U avoided the original question Gabriel

You say the bible is not from God but is his words. EXPLALIN HOW YOU CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT IS GODS WORDS.

If you cant just admit it, instead of withholding the truth.

[Gabriel]

I am calm. I was smiling when I wrote that.

I also believe in a Creator, probably for the same reasons you do. However, neither of us can prove his existence to someone who can put forward alternative rational explanations for the existence of the universe, which don't require there to be an intelligent First Cause. The existence of God does not prove that the Qur'an is His speech. As such, the mere fact of assertions in the Qur'an, about any subject at all, are not proof of the truth of those assertions.

You know you keep going on about rational evidence, but simply because you choose to believe in a causal link between God and the Qur'an doesn't mean that there is one.

Both angels and demons are mentioned in the Qur'an. So surely it is not irrational for you to believe in them. In fact, is it not obligatory for you to do so? However, I must point out that if angels and djinns do exist, they do so not because the Qur'an says they do, but in spite of the Qur'an, and they existed before the Qur'an did. So, they may have something to do with its authorship. My understanding is that pre-Islamic Arabs believed that djinn were known for their poetry.

Your proof of Jesus prophethood lies in the Qur'an. Here we go again.

No, I'm not hurt by your opinion of my religion, any more than you are by my opinion of yours.
As for an exchange of insults. I really was smiling when I wrote that, because I think some here really do think I'm one.

God Bless

Why is Quran a miracle.

Well

First, a miracle is something which has occurred and there is a challenge within it to beat or equal it. Something stops being a miracle when its challenge has been met or broken.

The miracle of the quran is that its style of language is absolutely unique, its style has never been produced by anyone other than the author of the quran.

The challenge for anyone, human or otherwise, is to produce a piece of prose in the same linguistic style as the quran.

The author of the quran challenges anyone to match him.

A man has the capabiltiy of matching a man, it is not the nature of man to regress in his capabilities as the human species proceeds through existence.

Man is becoming more aware more knowledgeabe as time goes on, but still cant meet the challenge of producing a piece of prose like the quran.

If someone matches the quran we will say fine it can be written by a man, so the challenge has been met, if not,then it aint from man, its from the creator, as that is the only other thing that man can comprehend that cn produce it and has claimed to produce it.

[Gabriel]

First, a miracle is something which has occurred and there is a challenge within it to beat or equal it.

I don't think an event must necessarily contain a challenge, either implicitly or explicitly, in order to be a miracle. An event either is a miracle or it is not. If the Qur'an is a miracle, then the fact of the challenge contained within it is of no account to its status as a miracle.


its from the creator, as that is the only other thing that man can comprehend that cn produce it and has claimed to produce it.

What about Satan, or some djinn? What evidence do you have that some other non-human entity is incapable of excelling human literary capability? As I said previously, demons in pre-Islamic lore are well known for their poetic ability. You may not use any statement within the Qur'an as evidence, as it is the authorship of the Qur'an that is in question, and it is in the nature of Satan and demons to deceive. Because of this fact any direct claims of authorship within the Qur'an are not compelling enough to be classed as evidence either.

[Gabriel]

Cant u please explain with A FACT what other non human entities can produce the Quran.

And dont use the bible as a source of evidence because aint possible by anyone to prove that tghis is an authentic source of fact.

If man hasn't got the capability to produce it that nothing else on the planet can either, as man is the most advanced entity.

As it is fully proven rationally that there is a creator then the only thing left that can produce it is the creator.

When people start talking of other non human entities that they cant PROVE exist it just proves what ridiculous assumptions people base their lives upon, and from there on build further assumptions upon false assumptions.

and then come out with "its true to me, or its just my faith, everyone to his own beliefs".

Why cany these non muslims just say "we admit it, cant prove it but gonna follow blindy", i.e why cant they describe reality.Answer, cos if you describe reality correctly, they sound stupid, and they would have to think about changing this life they have built upon all thier false premesis.

U avoided the original question Gabriel

You say the bible is not from God but is his words. EXPLALIN HOW YOU CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT IS GODS WORDS.

If you cant just admit it, instead of withholding the truth.

mujahideen.
I completely missed this post yesterday, sorry.

When people start talking of other non human entities that they cant PROVE exist it just proves what ridiculous assumptions people base their lives upon, and from there on build further assumptions upon false assumptions.

Come come now. You are obliged by the Qur'an to believe in angels and demons (djinn). You can't pick and choose those of God's words that suit your 21st century mindset.



You say the bible is not from God but is his words. EXPLALIN HOW YOU CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT IS GODS WORDS.

I didn't say it was not from God. If I said anything at all about the authenticity of the Gospels, I said they were not a record of actual words spoken by Him, in the way you believe the Qur'an is. I have come to believe that the Gospels are a human record of God's revelation to Man through Jesus, after some years of prayer and meditation.

[neelu]

Gabriel, the challenge presented in the Quran to produce a surah that matches it was not just a challenge for humans. It says that people can take as many helpers they like besides Allah (swt); this implicitly would include Shaytan and the Jinns- they still haven't managed to surpass it either. You make some valid points though. There needs to be more said here regarding what qualities within the quran do not exist in other works of literature and render it insurpassable rather than merely stating that no one could defeat its challenge. I need to dig up my old photocopy of Road to Faith cos' I remember that explained it fairly well.

[Gabriel]

neelu.
Ah, but if Satan or some (other) djinn were the author it would be in their interest not to try.

[abujamal]

Gabriel

You seem to spend all your time on this forum. Have you not got any friends or family or is this your full time paid job, as you have previously suggested?

[Gabriel]

abujamal.
There are many days when I'm not here at all - and the clock goes Tic Toc Tic Toc.

But as you ask, I do have friends. I don't see as much of them as I'd like to because I also have a wife as well as four young children, ranging in age from seven months to eight years, who like to monopolise my time as much as possible. My full time job entails my spending a lot of time in front of a computer, so I'm able to keep up discussions sometimes. I don't have a computer in my home, so after this evening you'll hear nothing from me for a few days.

Is this a question you ask all members, or am I a special case?

[abujamal]

So is this your work or do you not do much work when at work?

Only asked after your comment on another thread to abumusa whether he was after your job in trying to flush out Jihadists.

[Gabriel]

No, this is not my work. I've said this before.
I don't take breaks away from my desk, and I work long hours to fit a week into fewer days.

That comment was a joke. I find it funny that some of you may believe I work for the security services.

[Gabriel]

neelu.
You make some valid points though. There needs to be more said here regarding what qualities within the quran do not exist in other works of literature and render it insurpassable rather than merely stating that no one could defeat its challenge. I need to dig up my old photocopy of Road to Faith cos' I remember that explained it fairly well.
Did you have time to find this?
The literary excellence of the Qur'an is a quite fascinating phenomenon, and would appear to be the keystone in Muslim faith.
Are there any papers on this topic by non-Muslim Arabic speakers, that you know of?

[tmpuse]

Gabriel,

You say that there is a possibility that Quran could be the works of some non-human entities like demons and angels.Based on what sources did you establish your belief in the existence of these entities ? On what rests the decisiveness of those sources?

[stranger]

No.
This is first and foremost Jewish tradition. The Satan/Lucifer tradition isn't.
Ishmael was his son by Hagar, his concubine. None of the twelve tribes are descended from him.
P Falcon mentioned Issac (not Ishmael). According to Hebrew tradition Abraham showed willingness to sacrifice Issac (his only son though Sarah).
Issac was not in the end sacrificed and went on to have a son called Jacob so the 12 tribes of Israel are direct decendents of Abraham.

[Gabriel]

tmpuse.
Whether or not I believe in these entities is not the point.
They are mentioned in the Qur'an, therefore you are obliged to believe in their existence. As such, what evidence do you have (particularly bearing in mind the fact that in pre-Islamic Arabic lore, djinn are well known for their poetic ability) that the Qur'an is not a work of Satan or some (other) djinn? What evidence do you have that Muhammad did not fall victim to a devilish trick?
Any statement from the Qur'an itself cannot be accepted as evidence, obviously.

[Gabriel]

stranger.
Yes, but not of Ishmael.
If you read the relevant post again he was making a point about the Bible contradicting itself.
My reply made the point that it was written by Jews, for whom the existence of a son by an Egyptian slave could easily be ignored when it suited them. One is born a Jew if one's mother is a Jew.

[stranger]

O.k but your point that Abraham having a son "by an egyptian slave" being easy to ignore does seem a bit odd. After all the term Jew orinates as far as I'm aware from one of Jacob's 12 sons who was named Judah (hence the term Jew) and not from Abraham who didn't call himself a Jew.
So does this mean that the tribes from Judah's other 11 sibblings are gentiles?

[Gabriel]

stranger.
I'm not Jewish, so my understanding will be imperfect.
But no. The point is the descendants of Ishmael cannot be considered Jewish in part because his mother was not the wife of Abraham. I believe Ishmael is supposed to be the forebear of the Arabs.
The ignoring of Ishmael as a 'legitimate' son of Abraham is probably about politicking and ideology. The Jews consider themselves chosen of God, so they must be able to say with decisiveness who counts and who doesn't. I suppose they've tried to make their rules apply retrospectively.

[stranger]

I didn't think you were jewish its just that you mentioned about "hebrew" tradtions in an earlier thread.
Anyway if what your saying is true those who refer to themselves as Jewish beleive that one of the greatest human beings to walk the earth, revered by billions (including themelves) worlwide renowned for being the father of monotheim was a fornicator (a crime punishable by death in their own scripture).
And if they are ignoring Ishmael for being (as they, or you say they say) born from an illicit relationship.
We're all...... Oh I won't say it!
But thanks for enlightening me.

[Gabriel]

stranger.
If I have seemed to give offence I apologise. It did not even occur to me that I may. It was all rather a long time ago.
Let me try to clarify.
When I said 'illegitimate', I meant according to later generations of Jews, who for their own reasons wanted to define who was Jewish and who was not. I may have put it badly (obviously I did), but by 'illegitimate' I meant not Jewish, as in born of a Jewish wife and mother. I make no claim about the sexual mores of the Hebrews with regard to taking concubines.

Sarah told Abraham to lie with Hagar. Later she told him to send Hagar and Ishmael away. Inheritance reasons. God told Abraham to do as she said and not to worry because Ishmael's line would be princes, but His covenant was with Abraham's line through Isaac.

[stranger]

You didn't offended me in the least but the description of the mentality of 'later generations' isn't a very pretty one. From what you've told me
It sounds as if such a mentality exsists in dire need of reforming. Don't you think?

[Gabriel]

stranger.
All exclusive mentalities about the divine/human relationship are in dire need of reformation, in my opinion.

[stranger]

Well I reckon the exclusive mentality of monotheism established by the Prophet Abraham is the only 'divine relationship' that isn't in need of reformation.
And what a horrible way his name has been tarred by an estblished world faith.
The mind boggles!

[Gabriel]

There can be only one God. On that we agree.
I also believe that the exclusive nature of most religions erects barriers between men and is contrary to God's will for us. Although I've often found Matthew 5:43-48 difficult to live, I believe it is indeed God's will.

[stranger]

I'm not so sure we do agree you know Gabriel because in an earlier thread and I'm sure you will agree you admitted that there actually may not be a God.
Whereas in my world there is definetly only one God although you may feel that the Muslims rational and intellectual arguments as proof are not enough that's neither here nor there as I said we do not agree as you have doubts about Gods exsistence and I dont.
Get the movie whoops sorry the picture.

[Gabriel]

I don't doubt. By that I mean that I truly do believe.
I also truly do believe there is a country called Australia, where kangaroos live. However, I've never seen it myself so, all the testimony of 'Australians' not withstanding, there is a very remote possibility that I'm wrong about its existence.
I also truly do believe that my life is exactly as it seems to me to be, however there is always the remote possibility that I am no more than a brain in a vat, being kept alive and stimulated by the machinations of alien scientists (or schoolchildren).
I cannot prove any of these beliefs to be true. Even if I were to try to fly to Australia, the pilot of the plane may be part of some conspiracy to make me believe that there is a land called Australia where the England cricket team sometimes goes to lose matches.

[stranger]

I'm really shocked by that argument.
I didn't expect that from you after your enlightening revelations.
I'm having a sensible debate with you for crying out loud!
There is no remote possibilty that Australia is not in exsistence just as there is no remote possibility that kangaroos live there, just as there is no remote possibilty that there is not a mountain in Al-Quds (jerusalem) named Zion by Jewish sects.
I've never seen these things but I would be extremley embarrased if I tried your argument as a defence.
That was pretty sad stuff.

[Gabriel]

I cited these examples because to the determined sceptic you could never prove anything.
Of course Australia exists, and of course God exists. However, we believe in these things because the weight of evidence is so preponderous (and for us to be wrong about them would require us to be wrong about so much else) that the possibility that we are wrong is so near to zero probability as to make no difference. I merely state the possibility as a matter of intellectual honesty regarding my position.
So, I say again. I do believe in God.

However the possibility that the Qur'an is not the word of God is not at all so remote. You may scoff at the idea of being a brain in a vat, but you may not scoff at the idea of djinn.

[stranger]

The 'determined sceptic' is the man who says
I'm not really sure if Austraila exsists... no I didn't say that... it does exsist... but then again there are people who exsist in this world who call themselves 'determined sceptics'.
The psyche of this personality also has the ability to say I do believe in God and also monotheism but at the same time I don't really know if my beleif is true. May be there is no God or monotheism. If there is a day of judgement then we'll all have to wait to find out who is wright from wrong. But I do beleive in it and I don't beleive in it it's hard to explain.
The reason why it's hard to explain is because it don't make sense.
The essence of your arguments are the ramblings of a madman. Seriously! You need to come better than that.
Brains in vats?
Ain't got a clue what you're on about.
Djinn? if you mean the creation of Allah then of course I will not 'scoff' as this.It is a subjcet of Muslims belie
why on earth would I scoff at that.

[Gabriel]

The psyche of this personality also has the ability to say I do believe in God and also monotheism but at the same time I don't really know if my beleif is true.

You seem to be implying that it is not possible to hold a belief in some state of affairs (e.g. "God exists" or "God doesn't exist") that may turn out not to be true in actuality. God doesn't exist because we believe He does. Our belief is just that, 'belief'. We are confronted with two alternatives. God either exists or He doesn't. After weighing the evidence, we believe He does. After weighing the evidence, Richard Dawkins believes He does not. Neither side can convince the other of the truth of their claim. So, either Dawkins is wrong or we are. That's it.

You don't scoff at djinn because they are mentioned in the Qur'an.
Bearing in mind how deceitful djinn can be:

What evidence do you have that Muhammad was not correct when he initially believed he was communicating with a djinn?
What evidence do you have that Khadijah was correct in her assertion that it was an angel and not a djinn?

As I am questioning the origin of the Qur'an, you may not use the Qur'an as evidence of it's own origin.

[tmpuse]

Gabriel,
The fact that Djinn is mentioned in the Quran has nothing to do with how you establish your belief in Djinns and devils because you dont believe in the Quran .So,how did you reach the conclusion that Djinns exist ? From what source?

[tmpuse]

Also remember our belief in the capability of Jinns,devils and angels is determined by what is mentioned in the Quranic text.

[Gabriel]

tmpuse.
Christians also believe in demons, devils and angels. But even if we didn't, you do. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter what Christians or atheists or anybody else believes. The Qur'an exists, so if it really is beyond the capability of man, there is more than one contender for its authorship, because:

Muhammad initially believed he was communicating with a djinn. So, from that one must assume it was a possibility. Pre-Islamic lore ascribed to djinn an excellent poetic ability. Djinn are known to be deceitful, so if one or more were the author(s) of the Qur'an, they may well be sure not to mention their ability to produce wonderful verses. They may also, if this deceit of mankind is to succeed in the long term, make sure never again to produce anything equal to the Qur'an.

Again.
Muhammad initially believed he was communicating with a djinn. Fact.
Khadijah told him he was not. Fact.
What evidence do you have, other than assertions in the Qur'an, that Muhammad was not correct and that Khadijah knew what Muhammad did not?

[Gabriel]

neelu.
You make some valid points though. There needs to be more said here regarding what qualities within the quran do not exist in other works of literature and render it insurpassable rather than merely stating that no one could defeat its challenge. I need to dig up my old photocopy of Road to Faith cos' I remember that explained it fairly well.
Did you have time to find this?
The literary excellence of the Qur'an is a quite fascinating phenomenon, and would appear to be the keystone in Muslim faith.
Are there any papers on this topic by non-Muslim Arabic speakers, that you know of?


Any luck?

[stranger]

The psyche of this personality also has the ability to say I do believe in God and also monotheism but at the same time I don't really know if my beleif is true.

You seem to be implying that it is not possible to hold a belief in some state of affairs (e.g. "God exists" or "God doesn't exist") that may turn out not to be true in actuality. God doesn't exist because we believe He does. Our belief is just that, 'belief'. We are confronted with two alternatives. God either exists or He doesn't. After weighing the evidence, we believe He does. After weighing the evidence, Richard Dawkins believes He does not. Neither side can convince the other of the truth of their claim. So, either Dawkins is wrong or we are. That's it.

You don't scoff at djinn because they are mentioned in the Qur'an.
Bearing in mind how deceitful djinn can be:

What evidence do you have that Muhammad was not correct when he initially believed he was communicating with a djinn?
What evidence do you have that Khadijah was correct in her assertion that it was an angel and not a djinn?

As I am questioning the origin of the Qur'an, you may not use the Qur'an as evidence of it's own origin.
No that's not what I'm implying at all.
I am saying you are confused because you say one thing one minute and something completely different the next.
Your arguments are clearly incoherent.
You come across as a wind up merchant who isn't really intrested in sensible discussion rather you (and your pals perhaps?) enjoy going around the houses with the ultimate objective to obsfucate (if you know what I mean.)
God exsists just as do kangaroos and Australia does.
As you stated God either exsists or He dosen't. I believe with a certanty that Allah is the only Lord And Mohammad is His Messenger.
Athiests beleive thats not true.
But you, you're like a scizoprhenic. God knows what you're going to come out with next.
Oh yeah that Dawkins bloke is wrong and I am definetley right without a shadow of doubt.
My evidence that it was not the Jinn talking to Muhammad comes from the same place you derived your evidences that it might have been.
Hello is anybody in!
Can't you see the illogicalness (I don't know if that's a real word but you know what I mean) of your argument?
As for you questioning the origin of the Quran. You have debated this over and over again with various members of this forum.
I was brought up in the Christian tradition and thanks to Allah He guided me to Islam.
I understand from some of your threads that from time to time your schizoprenic like personality becomes Christian.
Well I wiil never throw pearls to swines.

[Gabriel]

I am saying you are confused because you say one thing one minute and something completely different the next.

I have never said I do not believe in God. I have never said God does not exist.
Quote me from any thread you like.

My evidence that it was not the Jinn talking to Muhammad comes from the same place you derived your evidences that it might have been.

Precisely. So things are not quite so clear cut as you like to think they are.

Your arguments are clearly incoherent.

No. Not even terribly difficult to follow.

I truly am sorry you appear to be ending our discussion in this way.

God Bless

[stranger]

I am not ending my discussion with you.
The essense of your words whilst talking to me suggest that you feel although you believe in God (whatever that means in your world) there may be a chance that you are wrong and in reality there may be no God.
In my manner you would be called an 'off key bre'.
As for precisley. Come on! You're quoting from my religion it's very clear to me mate. If it's not clear to you about the rational and intellectul evidences after so much discussion on the subject you clearly have a psychological defect or you are a wind up merchant hell bent on indulging in kufr.
After discussing these ideas with a non Muslim over a period of time I tend to guage the level of coherent interaction and judge for myself wether the topic of discussion is worth continuing.
I and you know that you have discussed with various contributers to this forum about the concepts of the existence of God and the proof that the Quran is the words of Allah.
It's very tiring you know (especially when you haven't got a team with you).

[Gabriel]

you clearly have a psychological defect or you are a wind up merchant hell bent on indulging in kufr.

This sort of thing, like "pearls to swine" is uncalled for.

The essense of your words whilst talking to me suggest that you feel although you believe in God (whatever that means in your world) there may be a chance that you are wrong and in reality there may be no God.

I live in the same world you do. The real one created by the real God.
Why do you choose to believe that honest seekers after the truth about God must in fact be deliberately covering the truth, just because they do not reach the same conclusions you do? I have not accused you of lying or covering the truth. I believe you are sincere in your belief that God is guiding you, just as I am in mine. (Again that word 'belief') Perhaps He guides both of us. Only He can see into our hearts.

I'm not part of any team. That idea is as ridiculous as me believing that you and the others on here communicate via private message about how best to answer me. So yes, I do know it's tiring.

[stranger]

'Pearls to swines' is a biblical quote why are you offended by what you claim to believe in.
the world in which I was referring to wasn't the globe.
It is the world of thoughts.
You genuinley do not come across as an honest seeker of truth.
You haven't accused me of lying or covering truth because I haven't,
What has come from your threads is an indication of what's in your heart.
It comes acrooss as hatred for the truth rather than a yearning for it.
Know what I mean?
You being a part of a team is not 'ridiculous at all.
Just as its not ridiculous to suggest that I or communicate via private message etc (althuogh I dont).
n

[Gabriel]

'Pearls to swines' is a biblical quote why are you offended by what you claim to believe in.
the world in which I was referring to wasn't the globe.
It is the world of thoughts.
You genuinley do not come across as an honest seeker of truth.
You haven't accused me of lying or covering truth because I haven't,
What has come from your threads is an indication of what's in your heart.
It comes acrooss as hatred for the truth rather than a yearning for it.
Know what I mean?
You being a part of a team is not 'ridiculous at all.
Just as its not ridiculous to suggest that I or communicate via private message etc (althuogh I dont).
n

I'm supposed not to be offended by your attempt to insult me because you use a quote from the Bible to do so?
What a strange person you are.

I haven't accused you of lies or covering because I accept your sincerity.
I have different views to the rest of this forum, and sometimes my posts may seem provocative or even combative. This is because some (not all) here seem to me to be unable to accept that just because one is not a Muslim it does not follow that one is automatically anti-Muslim, or a liar, or a hater of the truth. No matter how certain you are that your faith is the one truth, to some good honest people it is just another religion, and to other good honest people it is just another path (requiring discernment every step of the way) to God.
As for not being a genuine seeker of truth. The difference between us is that you think you've found the whole truth, so you've stopped looking, and I think neither of us has, so I continue the search.

God and myself are the only ones who know what is in my heart, just as He and you are the only ones who know what's in yours when you resort to personal insult and accusation.

[stranger]

As I said in a previous thread I was once a Christian and you (when you're not being influenced by the 'determined sceptic') are a Christian.
It was not my intention to insult when I chose to refer you to the biblical quote of 'pearls to swines'.
This biblical quote refers to pepole that are not really looking for the truth and know matter how much evidence is presented to them they refuse to allow truth to penetrate their hearts.
Such people are not intrested in the truth and the moral of the story is that holders of the truth shouldn't waste time passing knowledge to a person who doen't really want it.
When there are genuine seekers of the truth waiting to hear it.
I as a Muslim have recived glad tidings for being strange.
Thanks for that.
The term swine is meant metaphoricly i.e not literal.
You are not a swine.
Forgive me if I get excited I don't mean to be offensive.
May Allah guide you (and your mates!)

[Gabriel]

No offence offered so no offence taken.

God Bless

[stranger]

And May Allah guide you!

[tmpuse]

What evidence do you have that Muhammad was not correct when he initially believed he was communicating with a djinn?
What evidence do you have that Khadijah was correct in her assertion that it was an angel and not a djinn?



Gabriel,
This incident about khadeeja is also part of the revelation i.e Hadith.Many Christian missionaries quote this particular hadith.Since you dont believe in the Quran or Sunnah,where do you get this information ?
You cant quote a hadith selectively when you dont establish your belief in those sources

[Gabriel]

tmpuse.
You're missing the point here.
You believe.
What I'm trying to point out is that anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) may draw a different conclusion from the evidence of Qur'an and Hadith.

When you say that I don't believe in the Qur'an or Sunnah, you are saying what exactly?
Because I do believe that the Qur'an exists, and I'm also prepared to accept, at least for the sake of argument, that it may be non-human in origin. I also have no reason not to believe that the Sunnah is an accurate account of the words and actions of Muhammad during his lifetime. So what do you mean when you say I don't believe in them as sources of evidence?

[stranger]

Tmpuse.
Dawa is for people who use thought.

[jungle_sniper]

I need to dig up my old photocopy of Road to Faith cos' I remember that explained it fairly well.

neelu, were you after 'faith & progress' or 'road to victory' - i can't remember a book called road to victory.

[neelu]

No, I think faith and progress was by Jamal Harwood and it does explain some of these matters but more briefly. Road to faith has been out of print for years, I've only ever seen a handful of people with photocopies of it. It was by Samih Atef Al Zein.

[Gabriel]

Dawa is for people who use thought.
Where is the evidence for this?

[stranger]

Neelu
'Faith and progress' was written by Jamal Harwood but there is also a book called 'The road to victory' written by members of HT prior to the redress of the late 90's.
I'm sure it's still available from brothers and sisters @ hizb.org.uk