Islam Vs Europe

[abujamal]

Islam and Europe

Interesting Speech by the Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, eralier this month on Islam's challenge to the West.

The Muslim attack on Christendom . . . has gone through three phases. The first is from the very beginning of Islam, when the new faith spilled out of the Arabian Peninsula, where it was born, into the Middle East and beyond. It was then that the Muslims conquered Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and North Africa--all at that time part of the Christian world--and went beyond into Europe, conquering a sizable part of southwestern Europe and occupying for a while parts of France.

After a long and bitter struggle, the Christians managed to retake part, but not all, of the territory they had lost. They succeeded in Europe, and in a sense Europe was defined by the limits of that success. They failed to retake North Africa or the Middle East, which were lost to Christendom. Notably, they failed to recapture the Holy Land. . . .

That was not the end of the matter. The Islamic world, having failed the first time, was bracing for the second attack, this time conducted not by Arabs and Moors, but by Turks and Tatars. They conquered Anatolia and Russia and captured the ancient Christian citadel of Constantinople. They conquered a large part of the Balkans. Twice they conquered half of Hungary. Twice they reached as far as Vienna. Barbary corsairs from North Africa--well known to historians of the United States--were raiding Western Europe. They went to Iceland--the uttermost limit.

Again, Europe counterattacked, this time more successfully and more rapidly. They succeeded in recovering Russia and the Balkan Peninsula, and in advancing farther into the Islamic lands, chasing their former rulers from whence they had come. For this phase of European counterattack, a new term was invented: imperialism. When the peoples of Asia and Africa invaded Europe, this was not imperialism. When Europe attacked Asia and Africa, it was. This European counterattack began a new phase which brought the European attack into the very heart of the Middle East. In our own time, we have seen the end of that domination....

The third phase has clearly begun. We should not delude ourselves as to what it is and what it means. This time it is taking different forms--two in particular--terror and migration.

Where do we stand now? The Muslims have certain advantages. They have fervor and conviction, which in most Western countries are either weak or lacking. They are self-assured of the rightness of their cause, whereas we spend most of our time in self-denigration and self-abasement. They have loyalty and discipline, and perhaps most important, they have demography, the combination of natural increase and migration leading to major population changes which could lead within the foreseeable future to significant majorities in some European countries.

.... the idea of freedom in its Western interpretation is making headway. It is becoming more and more understood, more and more appreciated, and more and more desired. It is perhaps in the long run our best hope--perhaps even our only hope--of surviving this developing struggle.

Read the full speech here http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.25815,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

[witness]

The Muslims have certain advantages. They have fervor and conviction, which in most Western countries are either weak or lacking. They are self-assured of the rightness of their cause, whereas we spend most of our time in self-denigration and self-abasement. They have loyalty and discipline, and perhaps most important, they have demography, the combination of natural increase and migration leading to major population changes which could lead within the foreseeable future to significant majorities in some European countries.

If this is what the Muslims have in times when we are not united under the leadership of the Khilafah, then you can imagine what it will be like when that is the case as it was before.

[Gabriel]

The Muslims have certain advantages. They have fervor and conviction, which in most Western countries are either weak or lacking. They are self-assured of the rightness of their cause, whereas we spend most of our time in self-denigration and self-abasement. They have loyalty and discipline, and perhaps most important, they have demography, the combination of natural increase and migration leading to major population changes which could lead within the foreseeable future to significant majorities in some European countries.

If this is what the Muslims have in times when we are not united under the leadership of the Khilafah, then you can imagine what it will be like when that is the case as it was before.


Yep. Subjugation for the rest of us.

[Gabriel]

The Muslims have certain advantages. They have fervor and conviction, which in most Western countries are either weak or lacking. They are self-assured of the rightness of their cause, whereas we spend most of our time in self-denigration and self-abasement. They have loyalty and discipline, and perhaps most important, they have demography, the combination of natural increase and migration leading to major population changes which could lead within the foreseeable future to significant majorities in some European countries.

If this is what the Muslims have in times when we are not united under the leadership of the Khilafah, then you can imagine what it will be like when that is the case as it was before.


Yep. Subjugation and tyranny for the rest of us.

[Gabriel]

The Muslims have certain advantages. They have fervor and conviction, which in most Western countries are either weak or lacking. They are self-assured of the rightness of their cause, whereas we spend most of our time in self-denigration and self-abasement. They have loyalty and discipline, and perhaps most important, they have demography, the combination of natural increase and migration leading to major population changes which could lead within the foreseeable future to significant majorities in some European countries.

If this is what the Muslims have in times when we are not united under the leadership of the Khilafah, then you can imagine what it will be like when that is the case as it was before.


Yep. Subjugation and tyranny for the rest of us.

[neelu]

No Gabriel, you're confusing living under Islam with living under American hegemony- complete binary opposites!

[zangi]

Gabriel whether you like it or not Islam is on it's way to rule over all mankind. To rule over all the world. So better get use to it.

[Gabriel]

Neelu.
Being forced to live under any political/religious system on pain of death is to endure both subjugation and tyranny. At least zangi and some of the others here are more honest about how things would be if they (and you, I think) got their hearts' desire. As he says, "whether you (non-Muslims) like it or not...".
How does Islamic imperialism differ from Western imperialism in how it affects, and is viewed, by those who are forced to endure it?

[zangi]

There is no such thing as Islamic Imeprialism. When ever Islam was established on a nation that nation eat the fruits of the rest of the Muslim world they were treated just like rest of the Muslims.

Unlike Western Imerialism when this was forced upon nations and the people they were subjected to tyranny they were robbed of the nations wealth which was transported back to the Imeralistic nation. Just look at Britain it went all over the world caused havoc killed innocent people stole the wealth to build Britains economy and infrstructure and destroyed the nation which it colonized.

So your comparision is incorrect and totally wrong.

[Gabriel]

You have a very rosy view of what it was and would be like under Muslim rule for those who fought to preserve their way of life, and who would fight to regain it.
I think Islamic imperialism is the Empire of God (God according to Muhammad, that is). In this empire one submits wholly, or one is killed or enslaved; and, if they are lucky one's family and friends are treated as second class citizens (Witness the views of the members of this forum on the "dirty Kuffar".), and taxed as such to fill the coffers of the conquerors.

"Gabriel whether you like it or not Islam is on it's way to rule over all mankind. To rule over all the world. So better get use to it."


Is this not an imperialist view?
How are you any less a fanatic than those Hindus you posted about elsewhere?
From where I stand you and they are of a piece. You have no empathy for anyone outside of "the group", and you have no insight into how your words and actions are as fanatical as those of the groups you consider to be your enemies.

[zangi]

Islam ruled for over 1400 years under which the Muslims and non Muslims (citizens of the Islamic state) prospered. Even the Jews who were being persecuted by western nations ran for refuge to the Muslim world (they called this the golden period) even non Muslims had their protection and as a matter of fact these same non Muslims fought along the side of the Muslims to protect the state from foreign invasion.

As for your view you stated:

" I think Islamic imperialism is the Empire of God (God according to Muhammad, that is). In this empire one submits wholly, or one is killed or enslaved; and, if they are lucky one's family and friends are treated as second class citizens (Witness the views of the members of this forum on the "dirty Kuffar".), and taxed as such to fill the coffers of the conquerors."

I say bring me evidence to this from the period of an Islamic State. When did this happen ? which period ? please bring your evidence.

As for me saying: "Gabriel whether you like it or not Islam is on it's way to rule over all mankind. To rule over all the world. So better get use to it."

This is a prediction of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) he said Islam will come to rule all mankind. (paraphrasing this saying).

As for you comparing me to those fanatic Hindus unlike them Musliims are not cowards and we do not kill children, destroy mosques, rape women fight the weak like they did in Gujarat. We are more ideological and God willing they will pay the jiziyah once again.

So your comaprison of Islam to Western Imerialism is completely incorrect. and quite the opposite.

I therefore advise you like many of the other members of this website have said to you in the past is to study Islam read about the History of Islam how it was a example to mankind and how it is system for ruling to solve the worlds problems.

[Gabriel]

You have your perspective on history, and others have theirs. We can all be selective in our evidence, that's easy. For instance, every day tortured, mutilated bodies of Muslims turn up on the streets of Baghdad. These atrocities are not carried out by American or British troops, but by Iraqi Muslims on other Iraqi Muslims. I heard recently of claims by at least one Iraqi woman that she was raped by Iraqi police. You may say that these people are somehow in the pay of the Americans or their agents or whatever. The fact remains, the perpetrators of these crimes would describe themselves as Muslims and no doubt find no tension between their faith and their actions. Probably because the victims are in some sense outside "the group". That is, they are the wrong type of Muslim. I don't deny that similar atrocities are committed by people who would describe themselves as Christians. I'm sure that these people justify their crimes too, in their own twisted way.
Interestingly, you have nothing to say about the attitude to non-Muslims which is very evident on this forum. If you cannot even respect us as human beings enough to refrain from lumping us all under the epithet "dirty kuffar", how can we expect you to respect us when we are dhimmi?

[zangi]

The difference between my history and yours is i gave you evidence and you did not. Your history was from google search.
Yes there are mutilated bodies in the street of Baghdad that are being killed by some Muslims, but the bottom line is this never happened untill the INVADING CRUSADER America and Britaina forceablly enetered by their puppets the Iraqi Govt.
They lied and lied telling the world Iraq has nuclear weapons and it was a threat to the western world. Being such cowards the western nation they imposed sanctions for 10 years so it could weaken Iraq and then justifeid it was going there for peace and like the cowards they are fough a war from the sky before it would fight on the ground.
Just shows how much a cowards you are. Unlike the Muslim army in the past it did not rape women, it did not fight the weak, it did not impose sanctions they fought like true men, which you lot are not.
Then you wonder why the Muslim world hates kaffirs.

[witness]

The reality is that this war on terror is a war on Islam and the west fear that the return of Islam will be a real threat to their very existence. Just as the US dominates the world with her ideology of Capitalism, and wants all the peoples of the world to embrace this ideology, the muslims will do the same with Islam. Only difference is that this systems is from Allah (SWT) and the capitalist ideaology is from man. One only has to look at the decadance of such societies and see what a complete mess they are in, because man is making the rules.
Islam has a track record that spans 1400 years and in that time period it gave dignity to man, and the progress that was made in such a short period of time was amazing, ranging from science, medicine, maths etc.
I think that the fear you have Gabriel is what the media wants people to have about Islam.

[Gabriel]

zangi.
What historical events were you personally an eyewitness to? Whatever the sources of "my history", how are they any less reliable than the sources of "your history"? Who is to judge?
No. The bottom line is that if a Muslim rapes another Muslim or blows up another Muslim who is out shopping or driving across a bridge to work, God will not forgive him because his country has been invaded by unbelievers. How do these acts of murder and rape hurt the Americans or the British? Every bomb and bullet used on Muslims in Iraq is one less bomb and one less bullet that can be used on the invaders. So don't try to excuse these people. God won't. These are your brave "true men". Muslims who hate all kaffirs do so because they don't consider any non-Muslims to be truly human. How can you hate all humans who are not Muslim simply because some non-Muslim humans are engaged in a war with some Muslim humans?

witness.
Do you deny that the resurgence of Islam IS a real threat to the western peoples' wish to live their own lives as they see fit, without having the laws of God (according to Muhammad) imposed upon them? Western society is decadent, but westerners are as entitled to self determination as are Muslims. You choose to believe Muhammad's message and wish to live according to its laws. Others do not.
Islamic learning in all the areas you mention was the most advanced in the world at one time. Much that the world has is thanks to the Islamic reverence for learning. This is undeniable.
I do not fear Islam. If God wills it then His children will all see the light eventually. I personally, am just not sure that the light is Islam. Being imperfect, I may be wrong; but I love God no less for that.

[zangi]

what historical events are you eyewitness to. At least i gave my historical judgement and proof by stating these Muslim countries that converted many years ago remained Muslims and even today they only recognise Islam as a away of life and the solutions to their problems they face.

Like yourself i was not present at these great historical day's but you name me one nation prior to Islam conquering it that particular nation now wants to revert back to it's old way of life
You will find that no nation will want to go back to it's old way of life.

The Muslim armies destroyed and conquered the Roman Empire you never hear anyone of these nations calling back to restor the Roman way of life, similar the Muslim armies also conquered the Persian Empire and the same people are still holding the rope of Islam.

On the point of Muslim killing Muslim for no reason this is a sin and a act committed against the teaching's of Islam.

Kaffirs as you say have never been just to anyone nation where ever it has gone it has caused destruction and mayhem,.
Look what it did in Africa to your christian brother's, they went into Africa in the name of the Lord gave the bible to the African's and then stole all it's wealth to the point Africa never recovered. There are many nations and many examples i could give and go on. Look at the British Empire, look at what American Imeprialism has done.

As for Islam resurgence this has never gone and has alway's stayed with the Muslims it's just the flame has been on low and God willing the flame is increasing and the Muslims are realising the only way forward is to increase the flame to full and that is why you hear the sweet roar of
"Allah o Akbar, Allah o Akbar" from the throats of the Muslims.
God willing may be in my lifetime maybe not the world will see a true system for justice and not the wicked horrible system we see today.

I am happy you do not fear Islam as once you see the beauty of it you will God willing embrace it.

[Gabriel]

Like yourself i was not present at these great historical day's but you name me one nation prior to Islam conquering it that particular nation now wants to revert back to it's old way of life
You will find that no nation will want to go back to it's old way of life.

The Muslim armies destroyed and conquered the Roman Empire you never hear anyone of these nations calling back to restor the Roman way of life, similar the Muslim armies also conquered the Persian Empire and the same people are still holding the rope of Islam.

The Roman Empire was imposed on the vast majority of its subjects, just as the Islamic Empire was.
Of course they haven't gone back to the religions of their ancestors. Any more than the Christian nations did when they were free to.
You have a very rosy view of Islamic history. There is as much evil among Muslims as among non-Muslims, and as much good. Just think about the concepts of Dhimmi and Mawali and Jizya. These concepts were about subjugation, caste and profit.
As for the Africans. Muslims treated them so well. From whom did the Christians buy many of their slaves (they bought many from Black Africans too)? It is arguable whether or not the Zanj rebellion was a rebellion mainly of badly treated East African slaves. But neither you nor I were there, so we can't settle that argument.

I am not trying to trump you on which is a better way of life. It just seems obvious to me that you believe that Muslims have and can do no wrong. That everyone would be and feel themselves to be better off under Muslim rule. It is also obvious to me that this is not the case.
I am an immigrant to this country. I like it here, so I bring up my children here, and am grateful for the opportunity. Incidentally, when I first came to this country many of my people considered themselves to be at war with the British. Consequently, many British people felt about us the way many now feel about Muslims. That's human nature.
I hear a lot about the corrupt rulers of so called Muslim states, on this forum. Perhaps your energies would be better spent being politically active in these places rather than in a country that has never been Dar al-Islam.

[Gabriel]

Like yourself i was not present at these great historical day's but you name me one nation prior to Islam conquering it that particular nation now wants to revert back to it's old way of life
You will find that no nation will want to go back to it's old way of life.

The Muslim armies destroyed and conquered the Roman Empire you never hear anyone of these nations calling back to restor the Roman way of life, similar the Muslim armies also conquered the Persian Empire and the same people are still holding the rope of Islam.

The Roman Empire was imposed on the vast majority of its subjects, just as the Islamic Empire was.
Of course they haven't gone back to the religions of their ancestors. Any more than the Christian nations did when they were free to.
You have a very rosy view of Islamic history. There is as much evil among Muslims as among non-Muslims, and as much good. Just think about the concepts of Dhimmi and Mawali and Jizya. These concepts were about subjugation, caste and profit.
As for the Africans. Muslims treated them so well. From whom did the Christians buy many of their slaves (they bought many from Black Africans too)? It is arguable whether or not the Zanj rebellion was a rebellion mainly of badly treated East African slaves. But neither you nor I were there, so we can't settle that argument.

I am not trying to trump you on which is a better way of life. It just seems obvious to me that you believe that Muslims have and can do no wrong. That everyone would be and feel themselves to be better off under Muslim rule. It is also obvious to me that this is not the case.
I am an immigrant to this country. I like it here, so I bring up my children here, and am grateful for the opportunity. Incidentally, when I first came to this country many of my people considered themselves to be at war with the British. Consequently, many British people felt about us the way many now feel about Muslims. That's human nature.
I hear a lot about the corrupt rulers of so called Muslim states, on this forum. Perhaps your energies would be better spent being politically active in these places rather than in a country that has never been Dar al-Islam.

[neelu]

Western society is decadent, but westerners are as entitled to self determination as are Muslims. You choose to believe Muhammad's message and wish to live according to its laws. Others do not.
Islamic learning in all the areas you mention was the most advanced in the world at one time. Much that the world has is thanks to the Islamic reverence for learning. This is undeniable.

My response from Surah Mulk in the Quran:
67:20 Nay, who is there that can help you, (even as) an army, besides ((Allah)) Most Merciful? In nothing but delusion are the Unbelievers. -
67:21 Or who is there that can provide you with Sustenance if He were to withhold His provision? Nay, they obstinately persist in insolent impiety and flight (from the Truth).
67:22 Is then one who walks headlong, with his face grovelling, better guided,- or one who walks evenly on a Straight Way?

[zangi]

The converts chose not to go back to their old way of life and those who paid the jiziyah remained to practise their religion and remain to be a citizen of the state which meant they had their rights and property protected.
So your comparision of the Roman Empire to the Islamic state is completely wrong and has no bases to your discussion.

I don't have a rosy view of an Islamic state but it will be much better than what we have today but i don't hear what you have to offer in it's place.

You have no understanding of Dhimmi or Jiziyah it just proves that you have not read on Islam or study the great periods of Muslim rule as a matter of fact according to Jewish historians the Islamic state was the golden period for the Jews. Not a concept of subjugation or caste or to make profits as you put it. The Muslim world is a rich world and does not need to subjugate the people for taxes and burden them with financial worries as today with the implementation of western sysytem.

As for slavery this was there much longer than when Islam first came as a matter of fact (please read this in the Quran) what Islam has to say about the treatment of slaves. In the Islamic period these slaves were given high postions and some even became Generals that went onto conquer Spain ie Tariq Bin Ziyad( raheem Allah).

Muslims and non-muslims will be much better off under a Islamic state than what we have today. It will not be a eutopia and i am sure their will be some problems but at the end of the day it is a duty on all Muslims to work to implement a Islamic State and i can say for confident it will be much better off than the sytem we have today.

I am sure people are putting their energies into place so that they may able to show the true colours of Islam to the world and that one day you will be paying the jiziyah and unlike this sytem if you are unable to pay your jiziyah the state will not impose any penalties on you.

[Gabriel]

zangi.
We argue in circles here.
I don't deny that much needs changing in the west. I just don't believe that imposing so called God's laws on people changes their hearts.
What good is it living according to Shariah, if we do so simply out of fear of the earthly consequences?
Does God want us simply to do no evil out of fear, or would He rather we lived good lives because doing so is joyful to us (because our goodness is joyful to Him)?
Do I have anything better to offer? If by "offer" you mean "impose". No, I don't.
The best I can do is to try to set an example to others, in so far as I am able, by living my life in accordance with what I believe is God's will. The most difficult aspect of Muhammad's message for me is its obvious militant strand. I know from experience that any foreign imposition is, and will always be, resisted by those imposed upon; and will engender an inevitable hardening of hearts. Better to carry the message peacefully.
Its hard to love a father who sends your brothers to rule over you and tells them to kill you if you resist.

God Bless

[zangi]

Gabriel we don't argue in circles.

When an Islamic state is established in Muslim land people will see thebeauty and the just of that system as they did many years ago and flocked to Islam as sheeps flock to it's home.

The people will not be burden like you are today in the west with economic instability, tax upon tax upon the people, social problems the list goes on and on.

When Islam will be established nobody will send their children to kill his brother for not accepting.

In Islam we don't shy away from Jihad unlike the west where they kill in the name of Democracy and peace, how sad ?

[neelu]

What good is it living according to Shariah, if we do so simply out of fear of the earthly consequences?

Shariah is a set of laws that emanate from the ideology, that makes your question all the more strange. What use is a law which does not have earthly consequences? Are you suggesting that we should not have laws? Or should not have earthly consequences for our actions?


Does God want us simply to do no evil out of fear, or would He rather we lived good lives because doing so is joyful to us (because our goodness is joyful to Him)?

Both. Of course fear plays a role. Would hellfire have any purpose if it didn't instill fear of the consequences of evil actions?


Do I have anything better to offer? If by "offer" you mean "impose". No, I don't.

If you think that this world can find peace and harmony by everyone finding love for one another without the need for the imposition of rules, laws and consequences to keep people in check then you're living in a dream world and need to come back to reality.


The best I can do is to try to set an example to others, in so far as I am able, by living my life in accordance with what I believe is God's will.

You may "believe" your way of life is God's will; has it occurred to you that God might disagree with your beliefs and want His will to be enforced on this earth? Hasn't it occurred to you, that when He (swt) punished Lot's (as) people for homosexuality, He IMPOSED his wrath and didn't consider their 'freedom of choice' to be an excuse?

[Gabriel]

zangi.
There was an Islamic state wasn't there? Why did the rest of the world fail to see the beauty of it and flock to it then? Why do you suppose the world will behave any differently next time?
We are all God's children. So, my brothers will not kill me if I accept their perception of my Father's will for me. Kind of them.

neelu.
Perhaps my understanding is faulty. Is not Shariah law God's law? Should we not want to obey simply because God is God and knows what is best for us? Of course there should be earthly consequences for breaking the law, where so doing is detrimental to others' welfare or ability to follow the law. Why should a Muslim who decides to become a Christian (for example) be punished by anyone other than God (assuming that God would want to punish him)?

Hellfire. If you obey God's law primarily out of fear, then it is unlikely that you can be said to have truly submitted to God. To submit to God is surely to turn your whole self over to Him, to align your will with His. His laws are to be obeyed because they are His will (and so yours), not because you fear to anger Him.

I don't live in a dream world. Although others here appear to.
There is a difference between my accepting laws drawn up by legislators who have been voted the power to do so by the inhabitants of the state, and being forced to accept laws imposed by a conquering power or a section of the population using force. The democratic systems are all far from perfect, but for the most part they guard against the forceful imposition of laws by unelected legislators, i.e. tyranny. If a democracy suffers this then arguably it is no longer a democracy.

And yes. It has occurred to me many times that God may disagree with my beliefs. What makes you so sure that you know God's will better than I? What makes you so sure that Muhammad's message is anything more than beautiful verse? Unless God has actually confirmed it to you personally, you are as much in the dark about the veracity of your beliefs as I am about mine.

Sodom.
Yes. According to the Old Testament he did impose His wrath upon them.
I can only point out that the OT is very different from the NT in its portrayal of God. By the way, I think Jewish tradition has always viewed the destruction of Sodom as not being about homosexuality per se, but about the total injustice and depravity that follow from a falling away from ALL of God's laws.

[~Itaqulah~]

Salaam

Long time reader, first time poster

In the name of Allah the most gracious the most merciful

Gabriel:

The Islamic Caliphate was nothing as what you might assume it might be my friend. Islam under the Caliphate was united and powerful. Many Jews who left Islamic spain due to the Inquisitions of the Christians went back to the Caliphate where the Jews were given much protection and freedom of faith. I'm sure you know that once the Crusading forces of 1099 took Jerusalem they killed 70,000 Muslims. Saladin as a response let every Christian go freely back to Christian Europe. Islam is not the barbaric religoin which you might think that is. Islam under the Caliphate protected all the Muslims from occupation. You say that Islam is a huge threat to the west but have you forgotten that it was the west that armed and supported these dictators in the Arab world?

There is no real Muslims country that imposes Sharia Law, the law of god. Sharia law is undeniably the greatest law on earth because the freedom the women have, the peace that must be imposed, the freedom of others to practice faith and much more. Allah has revealed many sciences in the quran which prove the truthfulness of the Quran. From the formation of sperm cells to the formation of rain clouds. Allah has blessed us all and InshaAllah we will all find true faith

Peace

[p]

hello gabriel

you are basing all your arguments on one fundamental flaw. that flaw is that you can understand the reason that Allah SWT issues a decree. you then think that on should be able to rationalise on Allah's decree and that if the decree cannot be rationalised then it should be rejected.

however, let us examine this further, this topic actually comes down to how we view our relationship with the creator. Allah SWT commuicated with us through the books that were revealed and the messengers. The communication was not two way. if you believe in Allah and you believe inthe messengers then you should imploement what was ordered to you via the quran and the messenger SAW. if you do then the great prize of heaven awaits and if you fail then await hellfire for your intransigence.

as for your previous points, we do not require the approval of wrong doers in order to spread the ideology, when Allah SWT has given us permission.

we implement the laws and have a justice and punishment system, because Allah SWT orders us to have this

the dhimmi live insafety and pay the jizayah because Allah SWt orders s to treat dhimmi in this way. not out of love or fear orrespect for what the dhimmi stand for.

[abujamal]

Salaam
Long time reader, first time poster


Salaam - welcome.