Bhutto reinforces the fight against the rise of Islam In Pak

[Analyst]

"The people that you see outside are the real image of Pakistan," she told reporters. "These are the decent, hard-working, middle classes and working classes of Pakistan who want to be in power so that they can build a moderate modern nation where everybody has equality.''

Pointing out her supporters who are ready to give sovereignty to disbelief to fight Islam and reform it to a new religion called Moderate Islam.


"This is the real Pakistan, and if we get democracy, this is the face of Pakistan the world will see, not the face of extremists who have thrived under dictatorships."

Again she highlights her vision of making democracy prevail over Islam and her ambition to destroy the sincere factions in Pakistan who want an Islamic leadership.

[abujamal]

I caught on TV today that Benazir is saying that she will allow foriegn troops to openly operate on Pak soil in order to fight Islam.

No wonder America was behind the Musharaf-Buhto alliance as Musharaf's existing policy can continue with additional support provided by PPP's support base.

May Allah thwart their designs and give the Ummah victory over them!

[abujamal]

The bomb blasts in Karachi a moment ago targetting supposedly Bhuto's convey but she escaping unhurt, but killing alot of Bhotto;s supporters, can only serve to strengthen the support amongst PPP supporters in her plans to partake in the war on Islam.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/558576E8-6ECB-468C-B70B-75554BBA8B72.htm

[abujamal]

Conveniant timing of these blasts considering Musharaf-Bhutto require popular support to make this happen:

Pakistan plans all-out war on militants
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

An all-out battle for control of Pakistan's restive North and South Waziristan is about to commence between the Pakistani military and the Taliban and al-Qaeda adherents who have made these tribal areas their own.

According to a top Pakistani security official who spoke to Asia Times Online on condition of anonymity, the goal this time is to pacify the Waziristans once and for all. All previous military operations - usually spurred by intelligence provided by the Western coalition - have had limited objectives, aimed at specific bases or sanctuaries or blocking the cross-border movement of guerrillas. Now the military is going for broke to break the back of the Taliban and a-Qaeda in Pakistan and reclaim the entire area.

The fighting that erupted two weeks ago, and that has continued with bombing raids against guerrilla bases in North Waziristan - turning thousands of families into refugees and killing more people than any India-Pakistan war in the past 60 years - is but a precursor of the bloodiest battle that is coming.

more here http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IJ19Df01.html

[abuYasir]

Some on this forum will recall a few of our members faced this woman some eight yrs ago at a seminar sponsored by Tamimis's democrats at the University of Westminster. She cannot break out of the usual bog standard arguments of there being just 2 alternatives - democracy or totalitarianism. As soon as one of the guys spoke out for the Islamic ruling system she immediately reponded by accusation of totalitarianism and accused the Khilafah of being a dictatorship.
Also, you may recall her on BBC's Newsnight a couple of months ago where she found a strange bed-fellow in OBM!

[abujamal]

She also accused the law of Allah, namely chopping the hand of the thief as being "barbaric" when she first became PM in late 80's.

[saleem]

Convenient timing? Possibly. Alternatively, someone genuinely wants her dead.

[Abu_Hamza]

like any prostitute she's availiable to the highest bidder!

[official]

like any prostitute she's availiable to the highest bidder!

Agree, prostitute can also be men like the so called leaders.

[Psychotic]

Convenient timing? Possibly. Alternatively, someone genuinely wants her dead.

im sure people genuinely do want her dead, just as there were people who genuinely want nawaz sharif dead. However there does seem to be something fishy about this situation. Its as though all events fitted into place. Bhutto coming back into pakistan doesnt necassarily translate into her being the next prime minister (although that is definately the plan). So for what reason were people trying to kill her? Therefore an attack on her life with small scale bombs which would not have reached her to appear to be contained to civillian casualties to shift public opinion towards the war on islam.

[abujamal]

"If it means sacrificing our lives, then we are prepared to risk our lives, but we are not prepared to surrender our great nation to the militants," said Bhutto

Note all Islamic groups, Tribal leaders etc have denied involvement.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/027E3DE4-7A4A-4AD4-8BBF-45E853BA06F8.htm

[saleem]

I wouldn't say the timing is fishy. Travelling slowly through a city like Karachi when some people do want her dead was not exactly the wisest things she ever did. Having said that, I agree that there is a possibility that it was an ideal time to show the "brutality of Islamic militants" thereby ensuring sympathy for her aims and disgust with the perpetrators.

Who is worse? Corrupt Bhutto, or her followers who are celebrating her arrival so she can plunder the country for the third time?

[unity]

These sorts of bombings just seem to provide the intended targets with more good then cause any harm.

What will happen now is that the alliance between the PPP and Musharaf will be more focused with a significant amount of public support to carry on with America’s plans in the region. Islamic Militancy and Al-Qaeda will be blamed to carry on fighting the Muslims and stop the rise of Islam.

Who is worse? Corrupt Bhutto, or her followers who are celebrating her arrival so she can plunder the country for the third time?

Bhutto is no doubt corrupt, as far as the supporters are concerned we will need to determine their level of conviction in Bhutto and her Policies. Amongst the crowd they may have been innocent people who were perhaps attending the gathering to hear what she was saying, they may have been someone selling something to the crowd earning a living. These people require culture to distinguish truth from falsehood; our efforts should be to elevate this people.

[Abu-Musa]

The fundamental reason why the Kuffar want to fight Muslims is that it is in their nature to never be happy with us until we leave our Deen and follow theirs. They also will never stop fighting us until we Apostate from Islam.

The Creator(swt) has already informed us of this in the Qur'an. So anything else is just creating an excuse for what they are meant to do by there very nature.

It serves no purpose going down the circular argument that because Muslim are fighting them, they will use it as an excuse to fight Muslims and stop the rise of Islam.


The PPP has a different Deen from Islam... their Deen is that of Secularism and Democracy.

Allah(swt) says: "Verily, the only Deen acceptable to Allah, is Islam" [3:19]

"And whoever seeks a Deen other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [3:85]


So the PPP follow another Deen which is a Deen of Kufr.

And the Prophet(saw) said "Whoever changes there Deen, Kill him".


So as far as Islam is concerned these matters are very simple.

[saleem]

I agree that there would have been innocent bystanders. There were also men who were dancing in the streets ready to have their heads chopped for Bhutto. Whether they are naive or mad is not the point. They are probably worse than Bhutto. After all, Bhutto has an interest in seeking office. She can loot the country. These supporters often know how corrupt the leader is yet still they want to be robbed and oppressed. Wasn't there a tradition about every nation getting the leader they deserve?

[abdul-ali]

So as far as Islam is concerned these matters are very simple.Fortunately not as simple as you would like it, such as declaring muslims as kuffaar, wholesale, and promoting their killing without any authority or right to apply the punishment of apostacy, with it's procedure.

If you asked the muslims of pakistan, whether they believe in Allah and his messenger and the articles of faith and even on the issue of whether Allah is sovereign they would in general affirm all this. The Islam that they have been taught has been secular and they understand democracy to be compatible with islam.

It seems that these Jihadists need to declare wholesale takfeer in order to justify their killings as it is well known that Jihad is fighting kuffaar to make Allah's word the highest as our prophet did so.

Further more they will not gain any support from the masses thus will never be able to set up a government and will forever live in hiding, causing only civil strife and warfare amongst their own people.

[Abeer-al-Janabi]

Also, you may recall her on BBC's Newsnight a couple of months ago where she found a strange bed-fellow in OBM!
Yes I remember Bhutto and OBM on Newsnight and whilst Bhutto was talking about democracy, OBM on the other hand didn't mention Islamic evidences such as it is forbidden for a woman to lead a nation etc.

Knowing OBM and his group's past, who knows if his ideas/opinions have changed AGAIN!

[saleem]

Just because someone doesn't mention what we think he should have mentioned doesn't mean he changed his opinion. Changing an opinion is not a capital offence.

[*Saifallah*]

Salams,

I think the timing was impecable, a massive rally she was looking for even more support from the people in relation to becoming PM again.

There were reports from her own security team, that they has missed the bombers, even after they saw people who were dodgy looking and nervous, and beleive it or not held up and interviewwed and then released and allowed to go back in the crowd.

There is a posibility of people genuinely trying to kill her, simply becasue they remember how much of a treachorous b***** she is.
But the reality is that this was staged, infact it further became a publicity stunt when she went around the hospital giving money to the families and aaying that she would eradicate this terrorism and also that she wants people to come in from abroad.

she is making all the right noises from the pimps of the west to go for the position for top dogggg.

[Abeer-al-Janabi]

Just because someone doesn't mention what we think he should have mentioned doesn't mean he changed his opinion. Changing an opinion is not a capital offence.

He should have mentioned something from the Islamic evidences in relation to Bhutto's democratic position/stance, which he did not.
I agree changing an opinion is not a capital offence IF the opinion one is changing to is stronger than the one held previously.
Also, one who claims to be a scholar should explain why he left an opinion for another opinion and not change for the sake of change or change each time the wind blows.

[saleem]

I agree OBM COULD have mentioned the point about women not being allowed to be rulers. But perhaps he thought it was better not to at the time. Perhaps he was wrong.

As for changing opinions depending on the wind direction, I am sure you say that based on real knowledge rather than slander. I am sure if you changed your opinion you would phone up OBM and explain your reasons why.

[ubaydullah]

An example of what some might say is a 'changing of opinion with the wind direction' is OBM's article slating everything to do with Wahabism including Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahhab himself. The article includes such statements by OBM as:

'In 1787, Abdul-Aziz Bin Muhammad In a large public gathering chaired by Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahaab, formed a new type of inherited authority (Wilayat ul-A'hed) based on the Wahhabi views and declared himself leader of the Muslims (while the true leader was the Khaleef who was in Istanbul). Then the pirate leader Abdul-Aziz Bin Muhammad appointed his son Saud as the Khalifah after him. Sheikh Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahaab agreed to this illegitimate pirate authority and passed his illegitimate Fatwa of Jihad against the Ottomani Khilafah.'

With OBM and his followers now saying how great Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahaab and his teachings were, I'm sure there are quite a few people wondering what caused his drastic change of opinion. Especially since his original article contained such specific, precise and comprehensive information. Not really the kind of information one could say they got wrong and simply walk away from.

Full article can be found here http://www.rd.dgu.ru/enews4.html

[saleem]

To be fair, I know of wahabis who seemed totally convinced that HT were deviants who ranted a lot but were not practical in the short term etc. The same wahabis now seem convinced that HT is correct. We are aware of personalities who clash and leave after years of membership of organisations. Just look at the discussions between HTB and HT!

Some such as Majid Nawaz leave HT for reasons he has given which we may or may not agree with. Others such as Ed Hussain seem to have done a complete u-turn in their very beliefs. So if OBM changes yet again it may well be because he changes his opinions and provided he is convinced by them, good luck to him.

[ubaydullah]

To be fair, I know of wahabis who seemed totally convinced that HT were deviants who ranted a lot but were not practical in the short term etc. The same wahabis now seem convinced that HT is correct. We are aware of personalities who clash and leave after years of membership of organisations. Just look at the discussions between HTB and HT!

With regards to the ranters and ravers, and those who allow personality to influence their membership of organisations, I have only the following to say. Worship is to Allah(SWT) alone and if somebody is allowing a personality or unfounded opinions to get in the way of their worship and fulfilling their duties, then they will have to answer to Allah(SWT) on the Day of Judgement for their actions. Even certain Sahabi(ra) did not completely see eye to eye but did not allow this to get in the way of their Islamic duties.

Allah(SWT) has blessed us with an intellectual belief and any discussion regarding Islam can only be at an intellectual level. Anybody who allows such factors as pride, ego, personal leadership etc. to enter into the equation cannot truly say that they are sincerely worshipping Allah(SWT) to the best of their abilities, and for that they will be accountable.



Some such as Majid Nawaz leave HT for reasons he has given which we may or may not agree with. Others such as Ed Hussain seem to have done a complete u-turn in their very beliefs. So if OBM changes yet again it may well be because he changes his opinions and provided he is convinced by them, good luck to him.

We cannot look into peoples' hearts so we could hypothesise all day about a person's intentions. But what we have got the ability to do is judge on the apparent.

With regards to Majid Nawaz, having read his detailed explaination for leaving HT I find them very shallow and misconstrued at best. That is what I can judge from the apparent.

Ed Hussain has clearly stated that he believes that religion belongs in an individual's private life and has no place in the realms of politics and the functions of the ruling entity. This is clearly contrary to the Islamic Aqeedah and if that his genuine belief as he has stated publicly then he has apostasised and is no longer Muslim.

The reason I posted the OBM article was not to do with changing one's opinion. It was to highlight the fact that he originally produced such a detailed revocation of Wahabism along with facts and figures. To then do a complete u-turn at a later date and actively endorse Wahabism is what raised many eyebrows amongst the masses. Especially since there was no apparent refutation of his original article and explainantion of on what basis he now rejected his original view.

Change one's opinion is fair enough. But when one has been so vocal and concise with their original point of view and indeed stated many specific facts and events, surely many will question how somebody could have come to such a different conclusion without detailing the stronger evidences they have now come across? For many it is simply not enough to be now told by the person that he realised he was wrong and has now corrected his stance.

[Abeer-al-Janabi]

I agree OBM COULD have mentioned the point about women not being allowed to be rulers. But perhaps he thought it was better not to at the time. Perhaps he was wrong.

As for changing opinions depending on the wind direction, I am sure you say that based on real knowledge rather than slander. I am sure if you changed your opinion you would phone up OBM and explain your reasons why.

Perhaps, perhaps and more perhaps...
I have first hand experience perhaps more than yourself.
When asked why did OBM change his opinions to a wahaabi I was told he got a grilling from a wahaabi and changed!! When you ask them what they think of HT they will tell you they are deviants without being convinced of what they are following themselves.

I wouldn't need to phone OBM if I changed my opinion but if I was a scholar or leader of a group I would at least provide my "followers" with evidences for changing an opinion i.e. moving from weak to strong evidence!
If you know can you provide the evidences please.
JZK!

[saleem]

I doubt every wahabi criticises HT as deviants without being convinced of it.

I know that evidences were provided for changing opinions by OBM. I am not the person to be able to discuss the details because I can barely understand them. However, I am sure there was ample opportunity to have got the information from the source. Or does the "no contacting OBM" still apply?

I can understand the comments by Ubaydallah and generally agree with his criticisms of Majid Nawaz and Ed Hussain. However, fortunately or unfortunately, not all people think alike. Neither do they weigh up the same evidence and come to the same conclusions.

I actually respect HT and what it has achieved. I just feel that if somone leaves they are treated as though they have changed their religion.

[unity]

I just feel that if somone leaves they are treated as though they have changed their religion.

Like you say this could be just a feeling.

Every Muslim has a rite to change his/her opinion as long as it conforms with Islam. If someone decides to leave HT for the sake of following another understanding and so long as they are convinced of it, so be it.